CMI on Cave-Men, Neanderthals, Denisovans · Revisiting Göbekli Tepe with Marc Bloemers
Neanderthals & Cavemen?
5th of Aug. 2021 | Creation Ministries International
- Is there any single of the 500 Neanderthal skeleta that is carbon dated to more recent than 40 000 BP? I know of Gorham Cave, but that's not skeleta, that's artefacts in the style of Neanderthal culture.
- Homo antecessor from Spain has a morphology like no genetics Heidelbergians, and a genetics close to no morphology Denisovans.
In other words, I wager that Denisovans = Antecessors (bad name) = Heidelbergians.
Sima de los Huesos, Atapuerca, and I think my countryman Svante Pääbo did the genetics tests on them.
- Why is the "creationist perspective" here identified with the CMI position that they were post-Flood?
As you very well know, I have made a minority report on that one ...
* carbon dates are early enough to be pre-Flood (both groups)
* Spain and Russia are two places where Neanderthals and Denisovans could have left mixed race descendants that made it into the Ark
* Neanderthals in Spain (at least El Sidrón) were vegetarian, while those in Belgium were both eating woolly rhino and men, and if my idea of Antecessor is correct, some Denisovans also ate men (in Spain too), which matches the pre-Flood scheme of just people (by definition not cannibals) avoiding meat from land animals up to Genesis 9:2, while cannibalism could be one aspect of Matthew 24:
And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark,
Eating - cannibalism
Drinking - vampyrism
Marrying - gay marriage
Giving in marriage - arranged gay marriage
Every abhomination unnamed, only alluded to, as it was in OT times (when Jesus spoke) forbidden to name abhominations.
- Chimps and other apes don't have a human version of the hyoid.
In them, the corresponding bone (not sure if everyone calls it a hyoid) carries two hooks that carry air bags for resonance when howling.
Australopithecus - hyoid with hooks for airbags = ape.
Neanderthal - hyoid with no hooks, both morphology and internal structure identic to modern man = man.
- The reason we find the so-called cave-men ...
Excellent point. Now, think real hard on the point, where would you find an integral T. Rex skeleton most likely (there are c. 30 of them)?
Buried where they had scavenged or hunted for prey? Or carried off by Flood waters 500 km?
I'm not betting on the second alternative, are you?
- Brings me to an answer to another point, you had used to argue post-Flood.
Caves being post-Flood, on your view (and certainly there are Flood conditions that would form caves, not sure why caves could not have formed in creation week for similar reasons).
How many times can it have happened that Neanderthal actual houses or grave monuments got buried for some reason preserving the cavity and then surrounding cave material eating up the wood or skins or whatever and dissolving and absorbing any stones?
- here, to publish. Resuming after this:
- in general
- Perhaps your main view on pre-Flood exclusion is, God wiping all men off the face of the earth.
This was Anne Habermehl's point.
He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Implying on her view, if it's found and human, it's post-Flood.
But the Neanderthals we do find, as you say, are found in caves ... and in a cave is sth other than on the face of the earth.
- "while the rest of the world" ... have any deer gut bound spearheads to shafts been found with carbon dates prior to 40 000 BP?
You know, while the date as such is very inflated due to very low original C14 level, it is arguably from before less inflated dates, because the carbon level was going up so fast in post-Flood times (still rising in Abraham's days, meeting 100 pmC around Trojan War, after Moses, before King David).
This makes any Neanderthal that is carbon dated to 40 000 BP or less recent a major problem to explain for post-Flood and especially post-Babel times.
- On the one hand: 60 % of the Neanderthal genome is in modern people.
On the other hand: no Neanderthal mitochondria (except Mezzena man, Neanderthal mother, "35 000 BP") after "40 000 BP." Dito for Neanderthal Y-Chromosomes.
Solution : the Neanderthal genome parts we find came through the Ark (including the mitochondria of Mezzena man if he was post-Flood), through métis, who did not carry sex typical DNAs from Neanderthals.
The parts that are excessive to 50 % of N. genome indicate this was not the first intermarriage with Neanderthals in the Noahich line from Adam or the wife's or a daughter in law's.
I sense, at 15:19, a Carterian view on statistical chances : all genomes would by Babel have been evenly mixed.
But in physical fact, genomes don't mix evenly, they are combined bilaterally for alleles.
Lack of Neanderthal genes in Africans is explainable by outbreeding certain genes after they had been there in ancestry or also by marrying from whoever on the Ark had no Neanderthal genes.
- "it takes some tme to work those things out!"
Hear, hear ... tell me when pop culture leaves you sufficient peace to actually reevalue the evidence between heliocentrism and angelic movers!
That day, I'd like to share a bottle of champagne with some two or three more (I don't do drinking a bottle of wine by myself, half bottles are my max).
- "after the time of the Tower of Babel"
Not if carbon dates for Babel are 9600 - 8600 BC (aka Göbekli Tepe).
You don't go quickly from 48.134 pmC in 2562 BC (carbon dating to 8600 BC) to 2.654 pmC somewhat after that and then back up to 82.73 pmC in 1935 BC (carbon dating it to 3500 BC, as per reed mats from evacuation of En-Geddi). In 600 years, the atmospheric sample will not decay from 48.134 pmC to 2.654 pmC. Or do you claim a coincidence of great reservoir effect for each Neanderthal so far carbon dated?
And much less will it first decay to 2.654 pmC and then go back to 82.73 pmC.
Even less chance if you put much less than 600 years between Babel and Genesis 14, as per Masoretic chronology.