Testify, alias Erik Manning, as an Anglican, has one big fault in not condemning Calvinism, but otherwise his non-Calvinist reading of Romans 9 is excellent stuff:
Confronting Calvinism Led Her To Atheism
Testify, 4 June 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXcJyg7kNI
My comments are two, first at 3:02, I give the Catholic answer - not mine, but Challoners and Witham's and Haydock's - to the Calvinist misreading of Romans 9. Then, at 10:41, I object to Erik Manning saying Calvinism or not Calvinism is not salvation essential. My answer is, by now it is, because the Church has defined we must reject Calvinism.
3:02 As Catholicism has condemned Calvinism, it is perhaps not surprising that Catholics commented on Romans 9.
This involves bishop Challoner.
After the textblock 16 - 20 we get this inserted comment section.
[16] "Not of him that willeth": That is, by any power or strength of his own, abstracting from the grace of God.
[17] "To this purpose": Not that God made him on purpose that he should sin, and so be damned; but foreseeing his obstinacy in sin, and the abuse of his own free will, he raised him up to be a mighty king, to make a more remarkable example of him: and that his power might be better known, and his justice in punishing him, published throughout the earth.
[18] "He hardeneth": Not by being the cause or author of his sin, but by withholding his grace, and so leaving him in his sin, in punishment of his past demerits.
Douay Rheims is basically available in two packages.
1) With Challoners inserted comments
2) With Haydock's facing comments.
Here is the fuller Haydock comment, citing obviously Challoner:
Ver. 15-16. I will have mercy, &c. Then it is not of him that willeth, &c. By these words he again teaches that God's call and predestination of those whom he has decreed to save, is not upon account of any works or merits in men, but only to be attributed to the mercy and goodness of God. See St. Thomas Aquinas on this chap. lect. iii. See St. Augustine, Encher. chap. xcviii. Epis. 194. in the new Ed. Ep. 105. ad Sixtum de lib. Arbit. chap. xxv. &c. (Witham)
Ver. 17. For the Scripture saith to Pharao, &c. St. Paul had shewn that there was no injustice in God by his giving special graces to the elect; now he shews that God cannot be accounted unjust for leaving the reprobate in their sins, or for punishing them as they deserve; for this purpose he brings the example of Pharao, who remained hardened against all the admonitions and chastisements of him and his kingdom. --- Have I raised thee up, placed thee king over Egypt; I have done so many miracles before thee, I have spared thee when thou deservedst to be punished with death, and at last shall punish thee with thy army in the Red Sea, that my name may be known over all the earth. (Witham)
Ver. 18. And whom he will, he hardeneth.[3] That is, permits to be hardened by their own malice, as it is divers times said in Exodus, that Pharao hardened his heart. God, says St. Augustine, is said to harden men's hearts, not by causing their malice, but by not giving them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will. (Witham) --- Not by being the cause, or author of his sin, but by withholding his grace, and so leaving him in his sin, in punishment of his past demerits. (Challoner)
Ver. 19. &c. Thou wilt say, therefore, to me, &c. The apostle makes objection, that if God call some, and harden, or even permit others to be hardened, and no one resisteth, or can hinder his absolute will, why should God complain that men are not converted? St. Paul first puts such rash and profane men in mind, that is unreasonable and impertinent for creatures to murmur and dispute against God their Creator, when they do not comprehend the ways of his providence. --- O man, [4] who art thou that repliest against God? This might stop the mouths, and quiet the minds of every man, when he cannot comprehend the mysteries of predestination, of God's foreknowledge, his decrees and graces, or the manner of reconciling them with human liberty. He may cry out with St. Paul again, (chap. xi. 33.) O the riches of the wisdom, and of the knowledge of God! how incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! --- Shall the thing formed, &c. Hath not the potter power, &c.[5] To teach men that they ought not to complain against God and his providence, when they cannot comprehend his works, he puts them in mind of their origin. Every one may say to God, with the prophet Isaias, (vi. 48.) Lord, thou art our Father, and we are but clay; thou art our Maker who framed us, and we are all of us the work of thy hands. Hath not the potter power as he pleaseth, out of the same lump of clay to make some vessels for honourable uses, and some for less honourable. St. Chrysostom observes very well, that this comparison must not be extended further than the apostle designed; which was to teach us, how submissive we ought to be to God, in what we do not understand; but we must not pretend from hence, nor from any expression in this chapter, as divers heretics have done, that as vessels of clay are destitute of free will and liberty, so are men. This is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and against the Scriptures, in many places. (Witham) --- The potter. This similitude is used, only to shew that we are not to dispute with our Maker: nor to reason with him why he does not give as much grace to one as to another: for since the whole lump of our clay is vitiated by sin, it is owing to his goodness and mercy that he makes out of it so many vessels of honour; and it is no more than just that others, in punishment of their unrepented sins, should be given up to be vessels of dishonour. (Challoner)
10:41 As a Catholic, I can only say by now that rejecting Calvinism has long since been a high stake concern.
Trent. Session VI.(1)
Canon 4. If anyone says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
Canon 6. If anyone says that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil as well as those that are good God produces, not permissively only but also propria et per se, so that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of St. Paul, let him be anathema.
For that matter, since c. 700 years earlier.(2)
Karolus inde (de Soissons) ad Carisiacum (Quierzy) veniens cum quibusdam episcopis et abbatibus monasticis quattuor capitula edidit et propria subscriptione roboravit. Quorum primum est : a Deo neminem prædestinatum ad pœnam, unamque Dei esse prædestinationem, quæ ad donum pertinet gratiæ aut ad retributionem justitiæ. Secundum : liberum arbitrium, quod in primo ordine perdidimus, nobis præveniente et adjuvante Christi gratia redditum. Tertium : velle Deum generaliter omnes homines salvos fieri, licet non omnes salventur. Quartum : Christi sanguinem pro omnibus fusum, licet non omnes passionis mysterio redimantur. Annales Bertiniani, an. 853, P. L., t. CXV, col. 1408.
- Adonis Jackson
- Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to join our theology group chat on a different platform for further discussion?
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @Adonis Jackson I don't do chats.
I'd be happy to have a discussion via email, like my three initials + at sign + dr + dot + com.
If you want per group, send a multi-adressee email to myself and to some others, not too many, please!
Notes:
(1) COUNCIL OF TRENT SIXTH SESSION
celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547
DECREE CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION
https://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english233/Council_of_Trent6.htm
(2) Article du Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique
PREDESTINATION
http://jesusmarie.free.fr/DTC_predestination.html
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