Zen and Lofton

Loisy and Mangenot · Zen and Lofton

Cardinal Zen: The Catholic Church Will End if This Happens
Reason & Theology | 19.X.2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFX_HCPbD-o

10:17 Can confirm.

I'm very happy to comply with the VERY first Syllabus of errors that I know of, issued by the Bishop of Paris in 1277 (and before you say "you mean Archbishop", no, Paris changed status and became Arch under Lewis XIV).

Stephen II Tempier issued it, and since his intro involved some suspicion about the orthodoxy of St. Thomas Aquinas, so before the latter was canonised, Stephen III (Bourret ? Bourrel ?) did not lift the doctrinal condemnations, but any and all suspicions of St. Thomas falling under them.

The Pope did not canonise the saint, before the Bishop of his see of residence had cleared him of doctrinal suspicions.

37:59 Their teaching can actually add up to infallibility.

It is impossible that it was not infallibly known that the Four Gospels were canonic by the dioceses accepting each even prior to Councils of Rome, Hippo, Carthage, and even more so Council of Trent.

However, prior to large "bishop conferences" Rome, Hippo, Carthage, it was basically local bishops saying so.

When local bishops around the world agree, they are infallible.

40:44 Before I converted, I was directed to the existence of SSPX disagreeing with Rome (I was also told they think Mickey Mouse is demonic), and I was directed to the then recent Assisi Prayer Meeting.

Now, I later changed my mind about that (and I have never during the years been told by any SSPX priest that it's wrong to read Mickey Mouse), but that's on me.

However, when I converted in 1988, I was told I did not need to be a YEC.

Later on, in 2001, when briefly returning from the SSPX, I was told I was wrong to be YEC. In the meantime, in 1992, your Church had issued CCC, with its § 283. I appreciate Jimmy Akin saying what I heard in 1988, I appreciate Trent Horn saying the same (though he is disingenious pretending on the one hand the freedom exists, and on the other, he warns against using it, and marginalises those who would use it). But over here in Europe, things are not the same, CCC § 283 seems to mean if you are YEC, you are mentally ill or schismatic.

I don't think I was the one lacking in due diligence on that one!

And obviously the post-Vatican II archdiocese of Paris is not in agreement with the 1277 diocese.

41:51 Lateran V gets us kind of stuck between Syllabus Errorum and CCC § 283

Condemned sentence in the former:
13. The method and principles by which the old scholastic doctors cultivated theology are no longer suitable to the demands of our times and to the progress of the sciences. — Ibid.

Proposed catechesis point of the latter:
283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me."

If Lateran V is true, both of these cannot be papal teaching.

43:43 If Sweden pays reparations to Lapps and Tatters and Gipsies who were targetted with eugenics and sterilised, Swedish tax payers obviously pay. Even if that ended 50 years ago, give or take. (The ethnic categories were not formally targetted, but nomadism, a lifestyle ethnically shared by them, was, and it obviously involved abuses of actual racism, apart from the theory probably having racist origins).

In the context, one can mention that Roger Mahony was promoted by "John Paul II" and Timothy Manning by "Paul VI"

44:47 While Cardinal Zen was wrong on the issue, the conditional statement "if X happens, the Church ends" is not equipollent to entertaining a doubt that the Church will end.

There is a psalm saying:

Canticum graduum. Nisi quia Dominus erat in nobis, dicat nunc Israel nisi quia Dominus erat in nobis : cum exsurgerent homines in nos forte vivos deglutissent nos; cum irasceretur furor eorum in nos forsitan aqua absorbuisset nos
[Psalms 123:1-4]

45:32 I don't think the analysis is correct.

A similar analysis was also not correct against Mgr Lefebvre saying "unless I consecrate bishops, the Church will end" or against David Bawden saying shortly thereafter, "unless we elect a real pope, the Church will end" ...

None of the three ever said the Church had ended or that indefectibility was proven wrong.

Two of them actually did, and the third is vaguely suggesting to do, something which on their views saved the Church from ending, i e was God's chosen means to provide indefectibility.

46:15 In the context, let me remind of a nuance in Trent.

contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,—whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers

Why not simply "doth hold" without reference to "hath held" or to the fathers?

Because one had recently seen episcopates in the North of Europe defect. Some were no longer bishops at all, like I think Parker, but some were validly consecrated and teaching heresy (I think this was the case with Laurentius Petri, who, while validly consecrated, did not validly ordain or consecrate, for lack of intention externally expressed in his deviant new rituals for ordination and consecration).

Lots of validly ordained priests, who had exercised pastoral as promoted by the Catholic Church, were promoting errors.

So, I think the Trentine fathers did foresee situations in which this could apply to a global level, with only a minority adhering to the true Pope.

46:43 Cardinal Zen could be contrasting the "we" with diverse Catholic to near-Catholic non-adherents of "Pope Francis" ...

• Vigano
• SSPX
• Bishop Pivarunas
• Pope Michael II
• Peter III

He would probably not yet have made up his mind or at least not wanted to state where among these the Catholic Church would be, but his words do not imply the Catholic Church would have ended.