Debate under one of the comments

A Man from Adelaide Pretended we are Heretics · Debate under one of the comments

6:25 How come you end the Ephesians 2 quote in verse 9?

As a Roman Catholic, I can read on to verse 10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

So, while our justification is not from works of our own, they are into works that are both God's and our own.

Which is exactly what Catholics believe.

Damir Vidović

@DamirVidovic-pf2pk

That verse DOESN'T say "God's and our own" like you said !!

Lynda Von Kanel

@lyndavonkanel8603

They always stop at nine and miss the whole point.

Barb Wire

@barbwire7449

Salvation is a free gift. Either it is a free gift or it is not a free gift. If it is not a free gift, and there is any payback, any strings attached, it is no longer "salvation"; it becomes "probation". Faith alone believers also believe in good works (Titus 3: 8) (Eph 2: 10). Unlike Catholics, faith-alone believers do not perform good works to show, prove, or secure a free gift; for in the formula for salvation, works and grace are clearly independent and cannot be mixed (Romans 11: 6). Jesus did all the proving and securing on the cross.

Salvation calls us out of darkness into the marvelous light (1 Peter 2: 9). Be not deceived; God is not mocked. Christians do not have a license to sin. To become effective Christians, we should not be stuck in idol. Rather, in gratitude and thanks for His miraculous free gift (2 Cor 9: 15), we perform good works as a result of the joy of our salvation. We are saved because of "His" righteousness, not "ours", because "all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64: 6).

Salvation guarantees us our entry into heaven. In heaven, we stand before the Judgement seat of Christ for our works, for our service to the Lord (2 Cor 5: 10) (Matthew 5: 12). So, obviously, Catholics and faith-alone advocates both believe in works, but for different reasons. But, the Bible is clear in over 100 verses that belief and faith are all that are necessary for our entry into heaven, and grace is all that is necessary for salvation, without any works (Eph 2: 8, 9) (Romans 4:5).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@barbwire7449 Getting justified is a free gift. Staying justified involves works.

The verses from Ephesians 2 that you quote are about getting saved, verse 10 is about staying saved.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@DamirVidovic-pf2pk It does. It says God has prepared them, so they are God's. It says we have to walk in them, so they are ours too.

Barb Wire

@hglundahl You trust in yourself. I will trust in Jesus. His grace is sufficient for me.

Bathoggywinger

@Bathoggywinger

Catholic "works" means just going to Church on Sunday and doing whatever your "father" tells you too. That's how the Catholic laity usually interprets that. The "father" is the intermediary in all things in Catholicism.

Catholics usually have no idea about the "Word", the Law, the examples of the Spirit of the Law(righteous living).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@barbwire7449 Did I ever say I trust in myself?

No, I did not.

You misquote a word about St. Paul, when it comes to sthquite different than any lack of works in him.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Bathoggywinger "Catholics usually"

What exact Catholic parish do you have experience of?

Or are you applying Protestant heresy based ideas on what righteous living means?

Bathoggywinger

@hglundahl It is an apt generalization fitting of most Catholics. Again, because the Catholic system, which I grew up in, doesn't teach what is actually in scripture.

I also learned from my much younger sister l, presently going through a Jesuit high-school that they're now teaching that Christ is "gender neutral", or whatever that means.

Barb Wire

@hglundahl You are trusting in your good works to "maintain" your salvation, instead of accepting his miraculous free gift of salvation for believing in the Gospel (1 Cor 15: 1-4) (Romans 10:9).

Christians are expected to perform good works in joy of their salvation, to become effective Christians, not to prove, maintain, or secure a free gift. Jesus did all the proving on the cross. Trust in His works, not yours, to get you into heaven.

(Isaiah 64:6) all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags before a perfect God. That is the reason Jesus came. He took our place on the cross because we were too imperfect.

If we were too imperfect to save ourselves then, what makes us think we are perfect enough now to keep ourselves saved ---through good works???

@hglundahl So, according to Catholic dogma, salvation is a progression. Since (1 John 5: 13) says we can know now we have eternal life (salvation), not wait until after death, and ( Ephesians 1: 13) states we are sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment we believe, at what point during this Catholic progression can a Catholic really know they are saved and are finally sealed with the Holy Spirit?? Where is the list of works that assures Catholics they have finally measured up, met the quota, so they can stop the work, work, work, spinning, spinning, spinning, like a hamster in a cage?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@barbwire7449 In the original Hebrew, Isaia says our righteousness (and this was spoken during the Old Covenant) are like menstrual pads.

It becomes filthy to keep the woman clean.

Now, the thing is, we do accept salvation as a free gift. This free gift must however be maintained, and as long as it lasts, it has the effect of making our righteousness beyond the thing mentioned by Isaiah, and a living thing, because it is not ours, but God's.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Bathoggywinger "the Catholic system, which I grew up in, doesn't teach what is actually in scripture."

Did you really?

"presently going through a Jesuit high-school"

No, you went through the Novus Ordo system ...

Most Jesuits today are Apostates rather than Catholics, if this is not the fact, it is at least an impression we sometimes get, we who keep the Catholic Faith.

Barb Wire

@hglundahl It is not in Hebrew that the pads become filthy to keep the woman clean. That is "assumed" by the Catholic church, just like they assume the "rock" is Peter, when the Bible is clear that the rock is Christ.

Lynda Von Kanel

@Bathoggywinger Wrong.

Bathoggywinger

@Bathoggywinger

@lyndavonkanel8603 Quote me New Testament Law. Guess what, you can't.

Lynda Von Kanel

@barbwire7449 This Catholic helps people in need out of love for them.

@Bathoggywinger That's assuming a lot. So, you can read all of our minds? All 1. 2 billion of us?

Barb Wire

@hglundahl So, if we have to maintain our salvation, then salvation is not a free gift. You ignore all the verses that state that salvation has no strings attached. (1 John 5: 13) says we can know we have eternal life (salvation). If we have to work to maintain our salvation, how many works do we perform before we can be assured we have eternal life? Where is the list of works and good deeds in the Bible that guarantee we can rest in assurance of our salvation?

We can be assured of our salvation by believing in the Gospel of Christ, by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection, by truly believing it in our hearts, and not in vain (1 Cor 15: 1-4) (Romans 10: 9) ( 1 Thess 4: 14) (Romans 1: 16, 17). The moment we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1: 13). Salvation is an event, not a progression.

@hglundahl If you are trusting in your works as a progression to salvation, then you are trusting in yourself to maintain your salvation, instead of trusting in Jesus' work on the cross and His grace.

@hglundahl At what point of this salvation progression are you finally saved? Can you know now, or do you have to wait until after death to find out whether you are saved or not?

Barb Wire

@lyndavonkanel8603 Good! so long as you are aware that works and grace are separate (Romans 11: 6). People who are truly saved will not live in darkness. Once we are saved we are a new creature in Christ, and the old things are passed away (2 Cor 5: 17). God bless!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@barbwire7449 "So, if we have to maintain our salvation, then salvation is not a free gift."

False. It's still free if nothing prior to justification could earn it.

"You ignore all the verses that state that salvation has no strings attached. (1 John 5: 13) says we can know we have eternal life (salvation)."

These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

St. John wrote "you" and not "each one of you", and a few verses later he states:

He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

"If we have to work to maintain our salvation, how many works do we perform before we can be assured we have eternal life?"

It's not a question of how many, but of dying in a state of grace.

"Where is the list of works and good deeds in the Bible that guarantee we can rest in assurance of our salvation?"

On your view, one good work: believing you are already eternally saved.
On my view, nothing. Rest in assurance is false security. Work in assurance is reasonable security, if assurance is taken as probable one. No single person can ever know before he dies he will go to Heaven, unless God reveals it specifically to him or her (St. Bridget, children of Fatima and a few more). But that knowledge is not necessary.

We can be assured of our salvation by believing in the Gospel of Christ, by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection, by truly believing it in our hearts, and not in vain (1 Cor 15: 1-4) (Romans 10: 9) ( 1 Thess 4: 14) (Romans 1: 16, 17). The moment we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1: 13). Salvation is an event, not a progression.

1 Cor. 15 contains:
if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

The preaching in previous chapters involves quite a lot of works, specifically avoiding certain sins.

In the same chapter he goes on to say:

And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

In other words, labouring is essential for the grace not to be in vain. His preaching involves more than just credenda.

Romans 10 involves this verse:

But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report?

1 Thess 4:13

For if we believe that Jesus died, and rose again; even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him.

Sleeping through Jesus means dying in the state of grace.

Romans 1:16—19

For I am not ashamed of the gospel. For it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and to the Greek. For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man liveth by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them.

The chapter goes on to state that sodomy is sin, deserving of death.

Ephesians 1:13 certainly speaks of an event, prior to death, either baptism or confirmation. Later on the "hope" is mentioned, and not secure knowledge. Staying in the state of grace involves a progression from that event.

"If you are trusting in your works as a progression to salvation, then you are trusting in yourself to maintain your salvation, instead of trusting in Jesus' work on the cross and His grace."

I'm actually (normally) trusting both. Neither is dispensable.

"At what point of this salvation progression are you finally saved?"

When I die in a state of grace.

"Can you know now, or do you have to wait until after death to find out whether you are saved or not?"

Usually I'll know after I die.

"Good! so long as you are aware that works and grace are separate (Romans 11: 6)."

Grace is the sole ground for justification. The initial event.

"People who are truly saved will not live in darkness. Once we are saved we are a new creature in Christ, and the old things are passed away (2 Cor 5: 17). God bless!!"

A few verses later St. Paul says:

Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.

Being made "justice of God" doesn't just mean believing sth, it means acting sth.

Barb Wire

@hglundahl (1 Corinthians 15: 2) KJV says "if you keep in memory" not "if you hold fast after I preached unto you". (Eph 1: 13) does not mention baptism or confirmation. (1 John 5: 12), the verse before (1 John 5: 13) tells us we the "He that hath the Son hath life". Your whole argument is riddled with word twists, assumptions, and added words, verse after verse that you quote. No need for me to answer any further. I have no idea which Bible translation you are using. God bless!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@barbwire7449 I don't use the KJV, I use the Douay Rheims.

Ephesians 1:13 does not mention Baptism by name, but by its fruit or the same with Confirmation.

We agree that He that has the Son has life. The one that loses the Son loses life.