Tolkien Again

Q I

What were the occupations of Tolkien's elves?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-occupations-of-Tolkiens-elves/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

19.IX.2024

If it hasn’t occurred to you, elves in Tolkien are supposed to be populations. Not just a caste.

This means, every occupation necessary to make a society subsist.

Lots were artisans, some were poets and grammarians, some were rulers, some were good at wild life subsistence (like Indians and Trappers).

THEN we have the food trades.

Lawyers, no. Priests, despite someone else’s answer, no: Tolkien did not spell out how worship of the true God would have been organised, except it basically wouldn’t have been, at this time in imagined prehistory. Money-lenders taking interest, also no (actually true for Dwarves and even of Men and Hobbits).

Production wasn’t organised on Fordist principles in Elven society.

Q II

Did Tolkien write any songs? If so, how many?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-write-any-songs-If-so-how-many/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 7 2024

He wrote text portions and sometimes sang them.

Almost any poetry in Tolkien is a song text.

Q III

Why are a lot of high fantasies set in times that are like a dark age when compared to the past of their own worlds, like how the first and second ages in LOTR are much grander than the third age in which it takes place?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-a-lot-of-high-fantasies-set-in-times-that-are-like-a-dark-age-when-compared-to-the-past-of-their-own-worlds-like-how-the-first-and-second-ages-in-LOTR-are-much-grander-than-the-third-age-in-which-it-takes/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 6 2024

I am not sure a “dark age” is how I would qualify it.

The latter part of Third age was dark for Eriador, but not for Gondor or Rohan.

Greater heros from the past are sometimes greater because it’s often the heroic that’s remembered of them.

But dark can be taken in another meaning than technological or demographic reduction. Dark like the Apocalypse is dark. The reason, if you ask me, is, many works both of High Fantasy and of Children’s Fantasy are meditations on the Apocalypse:

• Akallabêth (published as chapter of The Silmarillion)
• The Lord of the Rings
• The Last Battle
• Elidor
• The Brothers Lionheart

Meanwhile, the series beginning with A Wrinkle in Time is about avoiding an Apocalypse, avoiding an Antichrist figure from even emerging.

Tolkien saw both so far World Wars, so did C S Lewis. Astrid Lindgren was a child during World War I, and saw World War II. Madeleine l’Engle was born within a month of the World War I armistice. That and the Cold War made some people think about the book of the end times.

Q IV

Did J.R.R. Tolkien create all of the languages in his works, or did he draw inspiration from other sources? If he did borrow, where did he find inspiration for these languages?
https://www.quora.com/Did-J-R-R-Tolkien-create-all-of-the-languages-in-his-works-or-did-he-draw-inspiration-from-other-sources-If-he-did-borrow-where-did-he-find-inspiration-for-these-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 6 2024

I’ll give you a sample of inspirationS for Quenya.

Phonology: Finnish and Homeric Greek.
Verbal morphology: Greek.
Noun morphology: between Latin and Finnish, not all that far from Turkish, with some Greek inspired choices, like Genitive in -o.
Giving adjectives a separate ending from nouns: Esperanto.

Vocabulary:
alqua, swan — Icelandic álft (close enough to Sindarin alph, supposed cognate of alqua, so Sindarin was more directly inspired by Icelandic in this case, Quenya indirectly over reconstructing its cognate to alph)
pé, mouth — Hebrew
lá, no, not (one word for no) — Arabic
[different words for no — Greek had it too (and I think so has Arabic)]
ranca, hand or arm — Lithuanian
tulen, I come — Finnish
tiuca, thick — Scandinavian languages
serce (=serke), blood — probably a mixture of Greek “sarka” with Polish “serce” (sertse), the one meaning flesh and the other heart, the things that blood flows between.

In other words, since he was widely read in languages, he was able to get inspirations from so many different of them that the result is an original thing. Reminds me of a Greek professor. Mine, actually. He said (of papers, not conlangs) “use one source, it’s plagiarism, use two, it’s compilation, use three [or more], it’s original research”

The point being, on Professor Blomqvist’s criteria, Tolkien did certainly not plagiarise one language.

EDIT: correction, the Greek professor didn’t say “use” he said “copy” …

Q V

Will there ever be a writer that surpasses Shakespeare?
https://www.quora.com/Will-there-ever-be-a-writer-that-surpasses-Shakespeare/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

[This question previously had details. They are now in a comment.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 4 2024

I think two maybe actually did. Tolkien[1] and Lewis.[2]

Footnotes

[1] J. R. R. Tolkien - Wikipedia
[2] C. S. Lewis - Wikipedia

Q VI

What is the opinion of modern fantasy writers on J.R.R. Tolkien's works, such as "The Lord of the Rings"?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opinion-of-modern-fantasy-writers-on-J-R-R-Tolkiens-works-such-as-The-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 8 2024

When they have some kind of Marxist sensibility (like probably the case with GRRM), they are critical, because Tolkien was no Marxist.

I don’t keep up with modern fantasy writers sufficiently to know how many are non-Marxist or even Christian. Those guys would agree more with me.

Q VII

Can a constructed language (conlang) have no irregular grammatical rules?
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-constructed-language-conlang-have-no-irregular-grammatical-rules/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Sep 7 2024

That totally depends on the purpose.

Esperanto is a conlang for communication. It has no irregular grammatical rules.

Quenya is a conlang for art, by someone who knew languages very well, and it does have irregular items, like some preterites or past tenses are highly irregular.

Q VIII

Do you think the fact that J.R.R. Tolkien "translated" The Lord of the Rings into English adds an extra layer of depth to the story?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-the-fact-that-J-R-R-Tolkien-translated-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-into-English-adds-an-extra-layer-of-depth-to-the-story/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 5 2024

Finding an old manuscript, obviously, is always attractive.

Three Musketeers, Lord of the Rings, Name of the Rose.

Given that the events are supposed to be from times when the British Isles were not yet separated by the English channel, “translation” from some kind of pre-historic language (fictional or constructed) is inevitable, if one wants to do that route.

It’s attractive, it’s artsy, but as I know it is a pretense, it does not make the novel more meaningful, and neither does it make the novel less meaningful.

Q IX

Is it worth visiting Hobbiton if you are not a fan of The Lord of the Rings?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-worth-visiting-Hobbiton-if-you-are-not-a-fan-of-The-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 2 2024

1. If you have a family member who is
2. and / or if you like quirky architecture.[1]
3. and if you like beer[2]

Footnotes

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwFWpvtzsxo
[2] Our Brews

Q X

How did Gandalf choose Pippin to be the new steward of Gondor?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Gandalf-choose-Pippin-to-be-the-new-steward-of-Gondor/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 26 2024

Not.

Q XI

What is the equivalent of a language in Tolkien's world?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-equivalent-of-a-language-in-Tolkiens-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 26 2024

Two examples:

• English is the equivalent of Westron
• Anglo-Saxon is the equivalent of Rohirric.

This makes Westron and Rohirric, at least in relation to the novel fictitious languages rather than constructed ones.

The point is, if the setting is NW Europe in the times when Doggerland was above water (before there was an English Channel), it is basically impossible anyone would have been speaking English for real. The English is the equivalent of the most used language in the narrative, and this because, as unlike Sindarin or Quenya, Westron was not exotic to main characters, it is represented with its “equivalent” English, as English is not exotic to us.

Rohirric as related to Westron is treated with Anglo-Saxon equivalent, because in each case there is a close relation, and even so no complete intercomprehension, if you have not learned the other language.

If you write a novel in English, you won’t make its main characters speak a very different language (apart from when it’s set in India or Africa within English colonies where some speak Hindi or Kwazulu or Igbo). You will usually reserve other languages (real-world or constructed ones for a fantasy setting) for other characters.

Q XII

Which was J.R.R. Tolkien's single best line of writing?
https://allthingslordoftheringsjrrtolkien.quora.com/Which-was-J-R-R-Tolkiens-single-best-line-of-writing-17

Submission accepted by

Jeffrey Claburn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 23 2024

I went over 151 or so answers to parent question.

Lots of lines I love there too. Here are three things not mentioned.

Poetry:

The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the road has gone
And I must follow if I can
Pursuing it with eager feet
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet
And whither then? I cannot say.

Prose in the Legendarium:

And great deeds were done, that were not wholly in vain.

Prose in the Letters:

Your wife is your soulmate.

And the rest of that wonderful letter to Michael.

Q XIII

In terms of realism, which world is more believable: Tolkien's or Rowling's? Why?
https://www.quora.com/In-terms-of-realism-which-world-is-more-believable-Tolkiens-or-Rowlings-Why/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 21 2024

Tolkien’s.

He doesn’t romanticise a boarding school!

Q XIV

How much did J.R.R. Tolkien love his wife Edith?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-J-R-R-Tolkien-love-his-wife-Edith/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 20 2024

He died the year after she did.

Q XV

How does J.R.R. Tolkien's background as a philologist influence his portrayal of Elves' immortality in "The Lord of the Rings" series?
https://www.quora.com/How-does-J-R-R-Tolkiens-background-as-a-philologist-influence-his-portrayal-of-Elves-immortality-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-series/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 19 2024

It would be good to define philologist first.

Often it’s assumed to mean “linguist” but linguistics is only part of it. The main thing is reading old texts.

The type of old texts that are very appropriate for Tolkien’s elves is, how St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, other Church Fathers, other Scholastics, perhaps mystics too, argue that life would have been for mankind if Adam hadn’t committed the Original Sin.

Q XVI

Were all the Elvish names in The Lord of the Rings invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, or were they already in existence before him?
https://www.quora.com/Were-all-the-Elvish-names-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-invented-by-J-R-R-Tolkien-or-were-they-already-in-existence-before-him/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 17 2024

Any name in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion, that’s in either Quenya or Sindarin was, like these languages themselves, invented by Tolkien.

Some names were in existence before, but those are usually Norse names, sometimes Latinate ones, given as (equivalents of) the Westron of Men and Hobbits.

Elrond and Elros are Sindarin names, invented by Tolkien.

Sam Gamgee is a name in (the English equivalent of) Westron and not only was already in existence, but carried by a man who wrote Tolkien a worried letter. Lobelia Baggins is definitely a name that could exist in England, though I don’t think it did, and by now, any Baggins (if such) who named a daughter would probably want to avoid naming her Lobelia.

While The Shire is not on an island, it is meant as culturally equivalent to certain rural parts of England. Númenor, where Elros ruled some six thousand years before The Lord of the Rings, and Imladris / Rivendell where his brother Elrond still ruled when The Lord of the Rings started, well, they are meant to be mysterious, like Atlantis or like a Faerie, and Elfland. Therefore NOT to be culturally equivalent to rural England. Therefore in languages Tolkien invented, including names, which Tolkien also has to invent along with the languages.

Exception, Atalantë as a name of Númenor after it sank is obviously, if not identic to, at least clearly based on, Atlantis (which Númenor is supposed to represent).

Q XVII

To what extent were J.R.R. Tolkien's ideas in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" series realistic?
https://www.quora.com/To-what-extent-were-J-R-R-Tolkiens-ideas-in-The-Hobbit-and-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-series-realistic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 12 2024

In historical and naturalistic senses, they weren’t.

In morals, psychology, human interactions, and societal developments, they remain highly realistic.

Q XVIII

Is The Chronicles of Narnia as good as Lord of the Rings?
https://www.quora.com/Is-The-Chronicles-of-Narnia-as-good-as-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Dante Martínez

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 14 2024

They are good in different ways.

I used to reread both, regularly, before homelessness made me incapable of long reading.

Q XIX

which I posed (a little before my then account was banned) and Tiago Monteiro answered, as I just found out:
Was Tolkien forbidden in Franco's Spain or Salazar's Portugal, and if not were there translations to Spanish or Portuguese?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Tolkien-forbidden-in-Francos-Spain-or-Salazars-Portugal-and-if-not-were-there-translations-to-Spanish-or-Portuguese/answer/Tiago-Monteiro-11

Tiago Monteiro

Lived in Portugal

6 years ago

I don’t know about Spain, but Tolkien was not forbidden in Salazar’s Portugal.

The portuguese regime banned about 900 books from 1926 to 1974. Most of them feel into two categories: politics and erotic.

There wasn’t a big market for english literature. French was still seen as the model culture during the dictatorship and the big foreign authors were the likes of Jules Vernes and Dumas. Tolkien’s works were not forbidden, but were also not sought after. The first Portuguese editions were only released in the 80’s, when english started to become more mainstream.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

21.IX.2024

St. Matthew

Moito obrigado!

Q XX

What were the major achievements of J.R.R. Tolkien as a linguist and was he interested at all in non-European languages?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-major-achievements-of-J-R-R-Tolkien-as-a-linguist-and-was-he-interested-at-all-in-non-European-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

6 years ago

“What were the major achievements of J.R.R. Tolkein as a linguist”

Technically, a philologist.

Linguistic side, contributing to some Oxford English wordlist.

Old text side, editing Ancrene Riule, translating four poems, I think, from Middle English West Midland’s dialect, all probably from same poet, starting with “Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight”.

Criticism of Beowulf as a poem.

Mixed side, essays like Translating Beowulf and English and Welsh.

Both sides and the inbetween, lecturing.

“and was he interested at all in non-European languages?”

He was certainly intensely interested precisely in European languages.

It is however fairly probable or to my mind certain he had heard two languages as a child, which he then forgot, in which he seems to have taken no major interest, but which may have influenced his “language aesthetics”.

Afrikaans and Sesotho (Bloemfontein is nearly next door to Lesotho, as well as Karoo).

[One other answer reminds of his known knowledge in Hebrew and presumable one in Sanskrit.]