It can be noted that I had thought from the description of a learning curve that Kruger and Dunning were cognitive psychologists, it seems their paper from 1999 (for which only the abstract is available to me, and which abstract is closer to the pop culture idea of "Dunning Kruger effect" than descriptions of the content in the below video) is classed in "social psychology" a very different kettle of fish and one that is closer to the Soviets and to the psychiatric arts of bullying that cognitive psychology. I mean, the latter is the discipline I'd have predicted from the mention of "learning curve" ...
But the "learning curve" has other implications than someone knowing better than the experts suffering the Dunning Kruger effect. Not all experts are of twenty years experience. Not all amateurs in the DYOR tribe are at the beginning of a learning curve.
'Do your own research' and the Dunning-Kruger Effect
potholer54 | 9 Dec. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t54I6NKtr4k
"what we know as the Dunning Kruger 2:05 effect is not to be confused with Kruger 2:08 and Dunning's paper as I explained in 2:10 the video description there was no 2:12 mention of the Dunning Kruger effect in 2:14 the Kruger and Dunning study that term 2:17 was coined and popularized long 2:19 afterwards to describe the 2:21 overconfidence of people who gain a 2:23 small amount of knowledge and think they 2:24 now know better than the experts"
O K ... is there any paper by any expert (outside psychiatry) that deals with this overconfidence?
Or is it just a meme among the Left?
- Atypical Chad
- @Atypical_Chad
- In the time it took you to comment, you could've googled "dunning Krueger effect study" and have gotten an answer.
- Note
- This is not an empty channel, but on the other hand, his videos are short clips from video games.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @hglundahl
- @Atypical_Chad I suppose you did.
1) What study did you find?
2) Was it by someone who wasn't a psychiatrist?
- Note
- Above comment was censored.
At least it disappeared.
- NinjaMonkeyPrime
- @NinjaMonkeyPrime
- How are you struggling with a term used in pop culture and why do you feel the need to attribute it to a side?
- Ed T.
- @edt.5118
- Hglundahl. Woops, there it is.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @NinjaMonkeyPrime Thanks for noting it's a pop culture term.
Sounds very different from serious expertise about how people work (for instance by cognitive psychologists).
8:46 When was the last time you were sceptical about Heliocentrism and Evolution?
And, as simple a question as how we know the Earth is round.
Magellan wasn't a scientist. He was a traveller. Far more reliable people. The observations of Magellan add up to Earth having a curvature that goes full circle in the East-West direction.
And Irving is probably less of a science sceptic than a history sceptic.
9:37 It may be less than 1 % of what the experienced researcher knows in terms of facts.
It will be way more than 1 % or than 10 % and may approach 100 % of the general outline of the subject.
Do you know why?
Because that's the exact part that's presented first. The experienced researcher of 20 years usually has a very similar view of the general outline (unless his field has been revolutionised) as he did when he started. Given that Göbekli Tepe was found more like 40 years ago, this is even true of archaeology.
- NinjaMonkeyPrime
- "Given that Göbekli Tepe was found more like 40 years ago, this is even true of archaeology" No idea what you're saying here.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @NinjaMonkeyPrime Reread.
Your lack of reading skills is not my problem.
10:58 I do have a system for checking with others, correcting mistakes and so on.
The debate.
That's the exact same system Socrates had.
- Ben Podborski
- @benpodborski5972
- Sure… but suppose you’re debating someone whom is a terrible debater, and correct? They “lose” the debate, and later evidence exonerates them.
- NinjaMonkeyPrime
- You can't be serious. If someone makes a bogus claim in a debate it might take hours of research to determine the errors or even lies. Debate favors the scammer.
- Note
- Both are empty channels. Ben Podgorski seems to be a young Canadian teacher and mountaineer.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @NinjaMonkeyPrime In written debate, the hours are available.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @benpodborski5972 In written debates on blogs, the later evidence can be added in comments, unless they are turned off. Mine aren't.
If you want to resume a debate with me, I usually accept the challenge and add the later evidence, and my comment on it, either in an extension of the extant post, or in a new post.
- Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
- @Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear
- If you're talking about two people debating in comments or private message over days, then it can work if at least one of them knows how to check sources. If you're talking about a live debate in front of an audience, then there are techniques so effective at winning a debate despite being wrong that we've named them, like the gish gallop.
- Marco
- @Marco-it2mr
- Debates are often popularity contests.
Of note, there is a reason why one calls it the SOCRATIC debate, and not just the debate. Debate is a wide term, whereas the Socratic debate has clear delineations of a teacher discussing with their students. There's also the dialectic debate, which you frequently will find in scientific meetings.
Unfortunately, the majority of debates are just people telling others what they believe.
- Note
- Both are empty channels.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @Marco-it2mr "a teacher discussing with their students"
Not in Socrates ... he took students to see his debates with people NOT his students.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear "then it can work if at least one of them knows how to check sources."
Thanks, I've been doing that for 20 years. More.
16:23 I have a feeling someone directed this to my feed to gaslight me about DYOR ...
Because I just did prove there are four corners on the globe. No, not between the globe and surrounding space. Between continents and the Pacific Ocean, basically. The Maldives, for instance are NORTH of a line from Cape Horn to Hobart, those being the very obvious SW and SE corners. And the line being very clean. Definitely concave, absolutely NO land anywhere along the twelfths of the distance in coordinates. The West and East lines are less clean and the North line convex, but still. It's not a fifth corner.
Try to fact check me on details, well, no. Giving me a video in the feed with a calculated effect of either lowering my self esteem or showing the esteem others hold me in, that yes.
"If Potholer was saying vloggers 18:29 that do your own research aren't to be 18:30 trusted that includes 18:33 himself yes it does that's why I don't 18:37 do my own 18:38 research"
Except, apparently, on the subject of DYOR.
Because, as you started out admitting, Kruger and Dunning didn't do it for you.
[tried to add]
Let me give you a clue.
A scientist upholding an Evolutionist viewpoint may or may not be more expert than his vlogger (or in my case blogger) DYOR critic on the matter at hand.
But he is definitely NOT more expert on the topic of DYOR.
19:47 First of all, you misrepresent the school I had back in the seventies.
I was told, Science can be trusted, because Science can be challenged. No, not just by any other Scientist with the proper training. By people of the DYOR clan.
Second, you misrepresent the connection between Science and Technology.
The most connected you pretend might be between radiometric dating and finding oil. The thing is, there was some time since finding coal was done by checking for Carboniferous. There is coal not classified as Carboniferous.
Petrol ...
"Also, petroleum geologists are mainly interested in rocks from the Mesozoic and Paleozoic Eras. This is because almost all of the oil and gas found so far is contained within these rocks."
Oil on my shoes: The Absolute Geologic Time Scale
https://www.geomore.com/geologic-time-scale/
Sounds like the majority of this is from the Flood.
And 60 to 600 million years would be easy to get in radio[metric] dates (not carbon) from Flood deposits in simple good luck with dating methods.
In other words, the radiometric dates are NOT very relevant for finding the oil.
For other items, you are dealing with things that are pretty easily refuted if wrong, simply because technology will backfire. Astrophysics, Palaeosciences, Predictions in Futurology, usually won't. I'm just now trying to find out how many islands have been abandoned in the Maldives and especially why ...
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