Muslims Tried to Debunk David Wood

Muslims Tried to Debunk David Wood · Sharing David Wood Citing the Quran · In Case Some Don't Get, I'm Catholic and Not Evangelical, 1 Thess 5:22

David Wood's Top Argument Debunked (Islamic Dilemma)
Farid Responds | 21 Dec. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb0uKeejoMk

1:39 Really good at preserving classical opinions and conflicting opinions ... among themselves.

In their bubble. Prior to WW-I, the Muslim world was very isolated from the Christian world in different ways, remained so in Algeria even after it was taken in 1830, thank God for Charles X, but the Algerian Muslims could pretty well self-isolate from the government and European settlers on finer matters, like religion.

As to Christians within Muslim countries, Muslims have a very good talent to listen to Christians in actual or perceived inferior positions with "half an ear" ...

A Christian in AD 1700 Bulgaria said what David Wood said:

* scenario A, he was killed for supposed blasphemy * scenario B, he was forgiven

EITHER WAY, what he said was forgotten.

3:24 You don't know how it works?

For one thing, it directly states that it is in the Gospel, for another, it doesn't say, nor does any other verse of the Quran say, that the Christians forged the text of their Gospels.

Muxeno

@muxeng977

We believe in an uncorrupt Torah and gospel that was corrupted

These verses aren't found in the Torah and the gospel of today according to Farid ( although there are instances where they can be found, maybe he just agrees with David to be convenient ), therefore, the Torah and gospel of today are corrupted.

Aqeel | عقيل

@aqeel2859

Btw Gospel refers to the Good news revealed to Jesus. Not your autobiographies (by unknown authors) of Jesus' life

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@aqeel2859 Revealed TO or BY Jesus, that's a difference in theology.

Let's stick with a more basic thing.

The Gospel of St. Matthew is over 56 % words by Jesus. The biographic parts that make them understandable are considerably less, it's usually the occasion of the miracle or the words by a Pharisee needing a rebuttal, or once the occasion of a sermon, so "biography" is only a small part of the Gospels.

They really are The Good News and by the way, it's revealed BY Jesus.

4:57 "the Quran corrects this blasphemy, hence the Torah is not preserved"

Or the Torah is precisely preserved, and corrects the Quran.

5:22 You will find Muslims a good echo chamber.

They will take any verse of the Quran as truth. They will treat any verse that contradicts the Quran in Torah or Gospel as proof Torah or Gospel is not preserved.

B U T ... as soon as they see proof positive proof that the Quran gives clear hints Mohammed thought the Torah and Gospel were preserved, despite later scholars, they will forget this.

So, here we have two verses, 44 and 47 from Al-Ma'idah:

Indeed, We revealed the Torah, containing guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to Allah’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers.
So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.

Funny you did not take these two as the examples David Wood most typically uses for his argument.

"correcting statements found in the Bible"

However, David's main point on this would be, they never claim to do that, they claim to be, if anything, incompetent misreadings of an actually good text.

Vedic Dharma Exposed 🕉™

@ExposingHindutva101

Indeed Allah swt revealed the Towrah & the Gospel to the respective Prophets ( pbuh) not the self evident corrupted dead sea scrolls neither the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, luke & John...

Aal-e-Imran 3:3
نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةَ وَٱلْإِنجِيلَ
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel

Aal-e-Imran 3:4
مِن قَبْلُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَنزَلَ ٱلْفُرْقَانَۗ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ بِـَٔايَٰتِ ٱللَّهِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌۗ وَٱللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ ذُو ٱنتِقَامٍ
Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Criterion [i.e., the Quran]. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is Exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

Al-Baqarah 2:79

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَٰذَا مِنْ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا۟ بِهِۦ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًاۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Al-Baqarah 2:79 is from the Medina period.

It also does not say that the ones referred to are Jews and Christians.

It is a word that we could very clearly agree with, and consider Mohammed and Joseph Smith were guilty of.

It seems Mohammed couldn't make up his mind and wanted to be ambiguous.

5:42 There are also no verses in the Quran making direct claims the Injeel was corrupted as a text or the Taurat was corrupted as a text.

Muslim scholars who claim Jews and ourselves corrupted the text actually came a century or two after Mohammed. Not with support in the Quran text itself ... beyond your claim the Quran "corrects" namely the actual text. Which was probably the claim of such scholars back then too.

JustAnArab

@JustAnArab1

Torah:
3:78,2:79,5:13

injeel:
5:14-15
hope this helps 😉

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@JustAnArab1 I don't know Arabic, so this is from Saheeh International:

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

Surah 5, al Maidah, no mention of Tawra or Injeel being textually corrupted, just of Jews and Christians not following them.

Now to Surah 2 and 3

2 Al-Baqarah 79:
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Doesn't explicitly state that this is about Jews (or Christians), unless this custom was totally unheard of among Muslims. It targets private copying of Scripture, not falsification. In the Ummah, as you know, copying is usually done in large schools of copyists.

3 Al-Imran 78:
And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.

As it is about "with their tongues" it is about misquoting. Also, it says "there is among them a party who" meaning Mohammed is not accusing the entire Jewish or Christian Ummah.

Also no claim in the Quran that the actual standard texts had been corrupted.

6:21 That verse is no problem for either David Wood or me.

We don't need to agree that the Bible writes of Mohammed (except in contexts about false prophets).

Hence, we are not contradicting ourselves in not becoming Muslims.

We are saying this verse contradicts your contention that the Bible was corrupted.

I'll give an example from your scholarship. Jesus promised the Parakletos. Your scholarship says Periklytos translates as Mohammed (it does, and so does Lewis / Chlodevech, a king who came to Rheims centuries before Mohammed). So, your scholars have pretended we misplaced the vowels. From the perspective of people mainly familiar with Arabic language and Arabic alphabet, this makes perfect sense. Even more with a Byzantine pronunciation of Greek : very little difference between eta and upsilon, while Mohammed lived or his successors commented.

However, Parakletos and Periklytos are two different words. Para and peri are two different prepositions. kalein and kleuo are two different verbs. The compounds are very different in overall meaning, attorney vs famous (which by the way is the meaning of Clovis as well as of Mohammed, as mentioned). So, the argument of wrong interpretation or an innocent forgery by incompetence is replaced by deliberate forgery.

Thesius

@Thesius-q3o

The Qur’an affirms SELECTIVELY, therefore no dilemma, let me explain:

We don’t believe that the Torah and Gospel are corrupt at all.

We Muslims believe that the Gospel and Torah are PARTS of what christians and jews CONSIDER “Torah” and “Gospel”.

We believe that they (Torah and Gospel) are EASILY accessible in what christians and jews PERCIEVE as “torah” or “gospel” through rigorous historical criteria.

A good analogy would be that Muslims believe in the noble hadith YET they critically examine it with rigorous historical criteria, and grade it weak and strong.

Christians and jews are expected to do this too, examine their books and determine what is reliable from what is not. What they will find is the “Torah” and the “Gospel”.

The Qur’an EXPECTS this to lead to conclusions that align with Islam.

Objection: But why does the Qur’an never say that we have to apply rigorous historical criteria to the previous scriptures?

This does not have to be said. It is obvious because the scriptures of jews and christians at the time contradicted each other.

Therefore the Qur’an HAS to affirm SELECTIVELY, not ALL of their scriptures.

For example, different gospels adopted by different chrisitan groups like that of Mary, Thomas, Judas and the list goes on. Not to mention the variation in manuscripts for EACH gospel.

For jews, that would be the masoretic and septuigant vs. The samaritan.

Also, the Torah in Madinah was different from the Torah elsewhere:

The Jews brought [to the Prophet peace be upon him] a man and a woman among them who committed adultery. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Bring the two most knowledgeable men from among you." The Jews brought the two sons of Suriyya, and the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked them, "What punishment do you find in the Torah regarding these two?" They said, "In the Torah, we find that if four men testify that they saw his male organ in her womb, similar to when the eyeliner is inserted inside the eyeliner container; in this case they are stoned." The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "What made you stop stoning?" They said, "Our kingship (meaning Jewish) was taken from us, and we hated killing." The Messenger of Allah asked for four witnesses, and they brought four men who testified that they saw his penis in her womb like the eyeliner is inserted in the eyeliner container. The Messenger of Allah ordered that the two [adulterers] be stoned. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith no. 3862, Source. Sheikh Albani declared this hadith authentic in Sunan Abu Dawud, hadith no. 4452)

Sa'eed ibn Al-Museeb narrated that a Muslim and a Jew had a dispute, so they went to Umar bin Al-Khattab to judge the dispute between them. Umar bin Al-khattab ruled in favor for the Jew, which upon the Jew said: "I swear by Allah, you have judged with the Truth". Umar bin Al-Khattab hit the man with a stick that had a small ball on the top of it when he heard him saying that. Then Umar bin Al-Khattab asked the Jew, "How do you know that I judged with the truth?" The Jew replied, "We find in the Torah that whoever judges according to the truth, two angels from his right and left sides assist him to find the truth. Yet, if he went astray from the truth, they will leave him. (Al-Munzhiri declared this narration to be authentic in Al-Targheeb Wal-Tarheeb, Volume 3, p. 188)

The Qur'an can NOT affirm ALL of those, but it can affirm PARTS of those.

In summary:

1. The Qur’an affirms selectively because different christians and jews have different scriptures.

2. It affirms the Torah and Gospel WITHIN the christian and jewish scriptures.

3. Christians and jews should strive to critically examine their scriptures where the Qur’an EXPECTS the conclusions (Torah and Gospel) to align with the Qur’an.

Small obejection that may arise:

“The Qur’an does not mean gnostic gospels when it says Injeel”

Response:
Evidence?
The Qur’an even USES some stories from those gospels, this objection is dismissed, because it is unbacked with evidence.

The Qur’an DEFINITELY considers them christians because it uses stories that they ALONE believe.

This is the refutation, please use it when confronted with this supposed “dilemma”.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@Thesius-q3o "We believe that they (Torah and Gospel) are EASILY accessible in what christians and jews PERCIEVE as “torah” or “gospel” through rigorous historical criteria."

Well, no.

You don't believe anything is easily accessible within a larger corpus to anyone who takes the larger corpus as the thing.

Sorry.

It's like saying Shakespeare wrote exactly one play, and then saying that play is "easily" accessible in the collected plays of Shakespear.

And no, your criteria or not rigorously historic, they are rigorously Islamic.

@Thesius-q3o "Christians and jews are expected to do this too, examine their books and determine what is reliable from what is not."

We have not at all been instructed to do so.

"This is the refutation, please use it when confronted with this supposed “dilemma”."

What do you mean "use it"? I'm not a Muslim in the first place!

@Thesius-q3o "The Qur’an even USES some stories from those gospels, this objection is dismissed, because it is unbacked with evidence. "

Not our problem that the Quran is confused about Christians.

"For example, different gospels adopted by different chrisitan groups like that of Mary, Thomas, Judas and the list goes on. Not to mention the variation in manuscripts for EACH gospel."

All actual Christian groups accepted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Gospel manuscripts do not amount to important contradictions.

"For jews, that would be the masoretic and septuigant vs. The samaritan."

Jews and Samaritans are two different groups of non-Christian believers in the Torah. The Masoretic didn't exist in Mohammed's time, you could speak of a proto-Masoretic.

Now, the Septuagint is only used by Christians.

Also not our problem that your Quran is confused about what group uses what Scripture.

And as to the stories, I'd say Muhammed had a talent as bully which makes him very suspect as a "judge" and dito for the supposed different Madinah "Torah" ...

Thesius

@hglundahl
1. Gnostic christians don't believe in mathew, mark, luke and john.

2. The Torah in Madinah was different.
Also, are you trolling??
Samaritans considered themselves jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@ [Thesius] 1) Gnostic "Christians" ceased to exist before Muhammad's time. They may have been recently resurrected, they may have been very marginally present residually in Arabia (though it's improbable), but the main Christian presence in Arabia were the Copts, like in Ethiopia, and they believed the Four Canonic Gospels.

2) Apparently you believe judgements by Muhammed, I don't.

3) Samaritans still exist, they consider themselves Israelites, but not Jews. They descend from Ephraim, not from Judah. I am not trolling you.

Sorry that you have been confused by the statement "al Tawrah is the holy book of the Jews" in fact the Five books of Moses are:

a) the holy book of Jews along with many other books
b) the holy book of Samaritans, without those other books or most of them
c) and foremost the holy book of Christians, along with other books and with the New Testament.

Thesius

@hglundahl Bro, jews are the descendants of Isaac, Islamically, they are considered jews.

Gnostic christians existed in the 7th century, the religion did not die out, lol.

Yes, they existed in small groups but they definitely existed.

My argument stands.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Thesius-q3o 3) "Islamically, they are considered jews."

Irrelevant. They don't consider themselves Jews. And they aren't.

Jews descend from Isaac, Jacob and Jacob's son Judah. Samaritans from Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's grandson and adopted son Ephraim.

Christian Palestinians descend from both, since Christianity reunited them.

1) Gnostics existing in small groups, even if true, is not what Muhammed or the Quran talked about. O B V I O U S L Y they refer to the big groups of Christians there are and in Arabia the probably biggest were the Copts in the South.

Thesius

@hglundahl No. It is not obvious. Because the Qur'an STATES STORIES that they
A L O N E believe.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@ [Thesius] Like what?
a) A Gnostic view of the Crucifixion is anyway according to Muhammed's view, he could have invented it himself;
b) stories from Childhood Gospel of Thomas are not believed exclusively by Gnostics, some Catholics in the Middle Ages liked them, so the presence of that is no criterium.

Thesius

@hglundahl you dismissed the crucifixion view by gnostics quite nicely there

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Thesius-q3o Obviously.

St. John was a disciple, Cerinthus wasn't.