Wednesday, November 29, 2017

On Education and Homeschooling, with Paulogia

After first c. 7 minutes of video:

Creation vs. Evolution : Paul Ens / Paulogia has a problem with the word "authority"

16:13 Racial segregation (on no social ground, since slavery was abolished about 100 years earlier), chemical castration for homosexuality ... two consequences, historically, of segregating public morality from Christian beliefs and letting evolutionists ones intrude.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
16:39 "bathing suit styles?"

Abortion, school shootings, they would probably be more worried than I about spread of hash, there is a spread of heroine etc. I think suicide rates are higher, but haven't checked the stats.

School shootings happen in ONE country... the United States. The most secular countries around the world do not have them. This can't be pinned on secular.

Drugs, abortion and suicide are not moral issues... they are unfortunate (in some eyes) choices one makes for oneself.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Notable school shootings
 2.1 North America
  2.1.1 United States
  2.1.2 Canada
  2.1.3 Mexico
 2.2 Europe
 2.3 South America
 2.4 Asia
 2.5 Oceania
 2.6 Africa

Take Mexico which has had a secularist régime since 1917:

Ciudad Juárez school shooting Ciudad Juárez August 24 2011 1 Two cars drove up to an elementary school at around noontime, as parents were waiting for their children to be released from school. The men in the cars started firing assault rifles, killing one man, and wounding four women and one man. The elementary school was placed on lock-down and students were released after the situation was being handled. While the motive of the attack is reported to be unknown, schools in the Ciudad Juárez area have reported receiving threats and extortion demands in the past.[65]

Ciudad Juárez school shooting Ciudad Juárez January 12 2012 1 A 30-year-old man was killed by being shot nine times in front of children at an elementary school as they were leaving for the day. The shooting induced panic from parents of children, some of whom witnessed the shooting. The gunman was unidentified, as of 2012.[66]

Atizapán school shooting Atizapán May 6 2014 1 13-year-old Ricardo Ordonez was shot and killed at a school. 15-year-old Edgar Yoevani was arrested.[67]

Monterrey school shooting Monterrey Jan 18 2017 2 Colegio Americano del Noreste 2017 shootings 15-year-old Federico Guevara Elizondo committed suicide after shooting 2 students and a teacher. The teacher died more than 2 months later in hospital.[68]

Europe has had 20 school shootings since 1983 - not counting the earlier ones.

And as you are in Canada, 12 have happened in Canada since 1980.

"Drugs, abortion and suicide are not moral issues... they are unfortunate (in some eyes) choices one makes for oneself."

Moral issues are about choices one makes for oneself. Even public morality, as in public standards on what politicians can't and can do, must and must not punish, are only there for the sake of building a common private morality, so people can make good choices, or rather are in a better position to do so.

Also, you pretend to defend at home offspring, including teens, against one kind of choice parents could impose on them, but in practise abortion is often imposed on young pregnant teen girls by - guess who? - parents.

17:18 Reading your subtitles, four persons were awarded Nobel prize for "inventing MRI scanner"

Looking at press release, it was "for their discoveries concerning magnetic resonance imaging", not for actually inventing the machine.

It seems, Damadian actually did invent it after all.

"Raymond Vahan Damadian (born March 16, 1936) is an American physician, medical practitioner, and inventor of the first MR (Magnetic Resonance) Scanning Machine."

Sourced at Winner's Circle: Raymond Damadian,; accessed March 14, 2017.

Could it be you are so biassed against Young Earth Creationism, you could not take in a simple fact one of this set actually invented something useful?

17:51 "we have elected officials"

And in Canada, they are not the calibre of Judge Moore.

"and experts appointed by the officials to set curriculum standards"

Many of whom would be in the evolutionist community, since it is dominant, and many of the evolution believing biologists are either Atheists like Myers or that "Polish American" - Jerry Coyne - on Evolution is True, or else, heavily influenced by this kind of people.

A Christian could be on the expert team - provided he showed some kind of syncretism with the Atheist version.

Realistically, that is.

Seriously, even if the expert team were unbiassed and the politicians unbiassed, not likely to happen, this constitutes too much intrusiveness into the parental rights in education.

Mozart has been hailed as a genius, but the most basic fact about his beginnings in music is, he was a homeschooler with a father having a geek or rather professional level interest and knowledge in musical composition, and the Archbishop of Salzburg - the elected official in that place and time - was content as long as Leopold taught Nannerl and Wolfgang Catholic catechism and a useful job, which musical performance plus composition was and remains to this day.

Any modern school board would simply have been a hindrance, and Leopold Anton Eleutherius Freiherr von Firmian, archbishop of Salzburg (elected on 4th October 1727) and his successors (Jacob Ernest of Liechtenstein-Castelcorno 1744–1747, Andreas Jacob of Dietrichstein 1747–1753, most importantly Sigismund III of Schrattenbach 1753–1771) would not have cared less about the exact details of music curriciulm Leopold taught his family.

Which was good, if they had, they would probably not have allowed the emphasis on the then modern style of Viennese Classicism (or according to some, a predecessor of it called Galanter Stil), they would have imposed a concentration on Church music.

In other words, these days so much is lost in talents due to school curricula imposed by civil authorities, as well as public schooling being responsible for destroyed lives, which gun liberality is then blamed for, or "mental problems", as if the most efficient cure for most would not be to take children or teens out of a traumatising environment.

Kudos to Viced Rhino for homeschooling!

17:55 Minimum standards for health and safety should not be the ban of parental liberty.

They are well in their place on a workplace - where a wage earner is staying to earn money to be a parent with. They are also very welcome on food safety on commercial products, where the parents spend money for feeding their children.

In other words, as long as the constraints are on:

  • employers
  • and sellers
  • and other people many depend on

they are very welcome indeed.

But, what level of radiation or lead from a road is unacceptable is in fact related to things testable here and now, and testable as relating to physical health.

Being an ace within the evolutionist community, it might be socially desirable for some, but it is not physical health and it should also not be imposed on parents.

You show the children you have the best concern you can show them, let others show their own children the best concern that they can, as long as it is not involving Molochism or imposed incest.

18:13 Well, you actually should allow JW parents to ban blood transfusions, there are alternatives.

And if some doctor has got into its head that it is dangerous for "sexual development" that this Catholic family even allows the teens to fast as adult Catholics, chuck the doctor!

But again, a doctor meddling in physical health is not nearly as intrusive, since much more limited in scope, as experts deciding on what can be taught about the past of Earth before there were men to record it by observations transmitted to their posterity. Or on how far out the Universe reaches beyond where we have gone, or on how sure we can be there is a space program etc.

These things are not for doctors or any other expert to decide for parents. Experts can decide what can be taught in their institutions, fine, it's their institution, by hypothesis.

(misparsing paused subtitles)
18:22 So, you are in fact making "science education" a factor of mental health, by implication stamping Young Earth Creationism as mental unhealth.

In other words, you are involved in a kind of war of extermination against Young Earth Creationism, not too unlike what Canada was doing to Indians and Esquimaux about 1890 to 1970!

It's atrocious.

[While it would be, I got him wrong, partly, since "science education" belonged to next set:]

(parsing them right)
18:26 "future of our country"

Look, Adolf Hitler also believed he had a right to dictate how parents educated children, for the future of Germany.

Not quite as atrociously as you, though (even though he totally abolished homeschooling), but by having a set of organisations harrassing parents over allowing or demanding of children to do sufficient gymnastics and so on.

"technology" and "economy" don't depend on hammering in one ideology.

Unlike what you seemed to imagine a week ago, Damadian did invent the MRI basic technology. As for his not getting the Nobel Prize, come on, it is in Sweden! I am a Swede, I know the country, people like you have too much power over other people there.

That Karolinska would prefer others than Damadian might be because his own contribution was not so much the medical part (Karolinska is obviously in medicine), but that he was a Young Earth Creationist can certainly also have contributed to his being overlooked ("det låg honom ganska säkert i fatet" as we say in Sweden).

18:49 Your friend would not have been too dissatisfied with being a good wife and playing piano well, if she had not come under the company where people like you consider that inadequate. She may be blaming her parents for what she is going through, I am blaming guys like you!

18:56 Oh, Alberta has some decent laws, then? No minimal requirements for homeschool curricula? Parents are free?

Well, that is way better than when parents of Amerindian persuasions were not so free in Alberta. Sometimes not even to become parents.

19:05 Science education of young Mozart : "a pure fifth sounds nice, melodically and harmonically" "a half tone sounds nice in succession, but atrocious in harmony"

Math education of young Mozart : "the shortest phrase which can have an Absatz is four measures, count to four" etc.

Why should there be math or science minima at all!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
16:59 Did you in the radio interview actually say you wanted a curriculum imposed on homeschoolers?

If so, that was a fairly Communist thing to say - fairly disrespectful to parents' rights in rearing their children, while at home.

I did not advocate curriculum... I advocate for some level of bare minimum standards. (e.g. counting and reading... things not currently required)

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Salzburg was not requiring Mozart to irrational numbers, and his dad was only requiring the fractions useful in music. As to reading and writing, have you seen his letters? The German could best be translated by the English dialect used for Li'l Abner. If Die Zauberflöte is in standard German, it is Schikaneder (OK, he did write Bastien und Bastienne ... or not, the standard German in that is due to Friedrich Wilhelm Weiskern, Johann Heinrich Müller, Johann Andreas Schachtner).

He knew Italian better than German, in a way, due to Italian being the language of music, not least of opera.

I like the law as it is.

And if you were into teaching evolution in science, that is way beyond "three Rs". Don't get me wrong. I think creationist parents do a very good thing if familiarising the children with evolution as long as not themselves perpetrating full and exclusive immersion into it. My ma not only did not stop evolutionist relatives from gving me evolutionist material, but also did not stop me from freely reading and studying it - even before giving me any explicitly Young Earth Creationist material.

B u t, requiring it by decision of an expert committee, as a precondition for homeschooling? No.

19:05 If a math standard and a science standard should at all be imposed on all children, which, as said, I do not think, I find it peaceful in a way to accept Christians, but I find it less peaceful to require them to be geeks, or Fachidioten. In fact, if the word "with a math education" and "with a science education" mean anything, it is about contrast with people without such, and we are not speaking of Mozart or Li'l Abner. People like that don't come in committees.

So, the real meaning of "without science education" means having less of it than the experts, and that means the real meaning of "having a science education" is being an expert.

Obviously a standard should not include sth which is wrong. A science standard set by AiG and CMI (who encourage parents to teach evolution as what many scientists argue, and most scientists at present believe) would not be as objectionable as one set by someone evolutionist.

But the problem is, both the evolutionist and the creationist would be overvaluing the intrinsic educational value of the issue.

And experts on both sides have a stake set in this game.

19:09 "regardless of their religious beliefs"

No. It is precisely a religious preference on which one can at all require parents to any common effort in parenting. The Catholic Church requires parents to see the children learn Catechism and see they are baptised at 8 days, if not sooner, and see that they are able to (both morally and as per occasions given) to approach the sacraments.

The Protestants required reading as a means of reading the Bible.

When we come to "three Rs", we are dealing with people exchanging Protestantism for commerce and science as their real religion, hence the addition of "Rithmetic".

Anything beyond the common religion is the hobby of the parents, basically.

So, any reasonable standard would reasonably only be based on a religious belief. The one which is reasonable to Paulogia is obviously scientism, that is why he would like a science minimum to be set.

So, as well as being nonsensical, the requirement cannot really be met either. The requirement could be met in the sense of "regardless of their confessional background", but that would not be the whole of their religious belief. The idea of such a committee would indeed be, in itself, a religious statement.

Put a Catholic for five minutes in such a committee, let him be the greatest scientist and mathematician you can imagine, he will not help it set a standard, but tell them, the idea of their committee violates the IV Commandment (the one which certain confessions call the V : honouring the parents).

20:03 Demonstrating a flaw in someone's argument by inserting words he did not use and applying his principles to cases he did not envisage is in fact not a strawman.

Only attributing to someone a principle he does not hold, an argument he has not made, is a strawman.

Ken Ham was illustrating that you consider, as Atheists, that chance (with some help of natural law, also present in the building) was responsible for what came out in the end as a useful, purposeful order.

Calling that out as bogus is not a strawman.

20:12 "you were never a real atheist"

Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't, and perhaps he thought he was one.

For my part, I didn't get as far as thinking that, but I thought I was a big bang and evolution believer - though as most such, I did not use the word "believer" about it.

The point is, some Christian heresies (not Catholicism) say that a real Christian person can never cease to be a Christian. They base this on the Bible words, mostly, which mean that the real Christian Church could never cease to be the Christian Church. But I bet Calvin Smith would admit at least you thoughht you were a Christian, even with those errors in exegesis on those passages.

20:33 "It was Ken Ham's material ... which showed me lies in Young Earth Creationism"

On some issues, I think I have outdated some positions of AiG and CMI. But I don't think they are deliberately dishonest (except perhaps with reading my letters with attention focussed on arguments, as I send in articles on "news items of interest"). I think they are slow in changing paradigm.

Some YEC paradigms have had their day.

22:28 In fact, the State perhaps does not need to fund everyone's education.

One school law passed in Scottish Parliament required all nobles to send their children to school - why? Because these were the future élite of the country.

Most parts of Europe, the children not required to go to school, unless required by parents to attend this or that apprenticeship or working on farm, could go to school if they wanted to.

But if states should continue funding, one could attach standards as requirement of funding, but not of homeschooling as such.

22:38 Limiting Ken Ham's sales?

Not sure my idea will help, but if you'd like to sell some alternative Young Earth Creationist material, which could compete, here is my blog:

And here are the conditions of reuse:

HGL's F.B. writings : Be my Unwin or Hooper if you like.

(That was long version, here is short one:)

deretour : De retour + conditions d'utilisations ultérieures + régistre français
a linea : A little note on further use conditions:

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