Forrest Valkai to the Rescue of Radiometric Dating (Or Not?) · L M and Comparative Religion to the Rescue of Forrest Valkai? · subductionzone to the rescue of Forrest Valkai? Or Keith Levkoff? Deus-Stein? · How Carbon Dating is Done, Why My Calibration is Possible
Under the comment on population after the Flood, L M posted a response totally off topic to this, and which will be given a separate post, this one:
- L M
- @Hans-Georg Lundahl The god of the Bible isn't real. I suggest you look into his origins and the scholarship.
Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El. Even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9). A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity). The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel's development in Canaan.
It is generally accepted in the modern day, however, that Yahweh originated in southern Canaan as a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon and the Shasu, as nomads, most likely acquired their worship of him during their time in the Levant.
Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon
The biblical narrative, however, is not as straightforward as it may seem as it also includes reference to the Canaanite god El whose name is directly referenced in `Israel' (He Who Struggles with God or He Who Perseveres with God). El was the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon and the god who, according to the Bible, gave Yahweh authority over the Israelites:
When the Most High [El] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text).
The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods but chief among them was the sky-god El. In this passage from Deuteronomy, El gives each of the gods authority over a segment of the people of earth and Yahweh is assigned to the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity; but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god.
Yahweh, according to Amzallag, was transformed from one god among many to the supreme deity by the Israelites in the Iron Age (c.1200-930 BCE) when iron replaced bronze and the copper smelters, whose craft was seen as a kind of transformative magic, lost their unique status. In this new age, the Israelites in Canaan sought to distance themselves from their neighbors in order to consolidate political and military strength and so elevated Yahweh above El as the supreme being and claimed him as their own. His association with the forge, and with imagery of fire, smoke, and smiting, worked as well in describing a god of storms and war and so Yahweh's character changed from a deity of transformation to one of conquest.
As the Israelites developed their community in Canaan, they sought to distance themselves from their neighbors and, as noted, elevated Yahweh above the traditional Canaanite supreme deity El. They did not, however, embrace monotheism at this time. The Israelites remained a henotheistic people through the time of the Judges, which predates the rise of the monarchy, and throughout the time of the Kingdom of Israel (c.1080-c. 722).
Google "Yahweh - WorldHistory.Org."
Watch Dr Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards and lecture 8 from 12:00 to 19:00 minutes.
Watch "Pagan Origins of Judaism" by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on.
Watch "The Origins of Yahweh" by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica. Read the article linked in the description of the video.
Google "Jews and Arabs Descended from Canaanites - Biblical Archaeology Society."
Google "The Canaanites weren't annihilated, they just 'moved' to Lebanon - The Times of Israel."
Google "Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopaedia."
Google "Canaanite Religion - Realhistoryww.com"
(You can read about El, the husband of Asherah (Athirat) and the fictional father of Baal, Anat, Mot, Yahweh and other fictional Canaanite gods here)
Google "Canaanite Phoenician Origin of the God of the Israelites."
Google "The Phoenician God Resheph in the Bible - Is That in the Bible?"
Google "God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."
(Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugartic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh as he became the top god in the pantheon)
Google "Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."
Google "Married Deities: Asherah and Yahweh in Early Israelite Religion - Yahweh Elohim."
Google "How the Jews Invented God and Made Him Great- Archaeology - Haaretz."
Google "The Invention of God - Maclean's"
Google "The Boundaries of the Nations - Yahweh Elohim."
Google "Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."
Google "How Did the Bible’s Editors Conceal Evidence of Israelite Polytheism - Evolution of God by Robert Wright."
Google "A Theologically Revised Text: Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - Ancient Hebrew Poetry."
Google "Biblical Contradiction #3: Which God is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth: Yahweh or El?"
Google "Biblical Contradiction #27. Are Yahweh and El the Same God or Not?"
Google "Mark Smith: "Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh's Ascendancy - Lehi's Library."
Google "Quartz Hill School of Theology - B425 Ugarit and the Bible."
Google "The Origins of Yahweh and the Revived Kenite Hypothesis - Is That in the Bible?"
Google "Yahweh, god of metallurgy - Fewer Lacunae."
Google "Polytheistic Roots of Israelite Religion - Fewer Lacunae."
Google "Biblical Polytheism - Bob Seidensticker."
Google "Combat Myth: The Curious Story of Yahweh and the Gods Who Preceded Him - Bob Seidensticker."
Google "Religious Studies: El, Yahweh and the Development of Monotheism in Ancient Israel."
Google "Decoupling YHWH and El - Daniel O. McClellan."
Google "Yhwh, God of Edom - Daniel O. McClellan."
Google "The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins" based on the majority scholarly consensus.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @L M I will omit your basically name-dropping list. If I had hours each day on internet in a library, I might go into it, but as it is, no thanks. I will however respond to your arguments before that.
"The god of the Bible isn't real."
There are more than one way to argue that, they are all wrong and before we look at what you could say, I'll mention that if you by some knock on my head or drugging came to convince me of that, it would still not prove radiometric dating or that the population increase after the Flood were some kind of impossibility, either in quantity or in genetic relative still health.
"I suggest you look into his origins and the scholarship."
Ah, the compatative religions approach ...
"Although the biblical narratives depict Yahweh as the sole creator god, lord of the universe, and god of the Israelites especially, initially he seems"
Seems to whom? From what material?
"to have been Canaanite in origin and subordinate to the supreme god El."
So, someone has studied some Canaanite religion or purported such, supposed to be older than the Israelite religion, and I'd like to know the argument for that, and concluded it is the original and the Israelite God the copy. In a purely atheistic world view, this would obviously be possible, but at least rather iffy. But if you consider there is any kind of God, why would "true Canaanean gods" have allowed a fake Israelite one to usurp the honour they want? So, your position actually begs Atheism to its rescue. Or perhaps Deism.
"Even the biblical Book of Deuteronomy stipulates that “the Most High, El, gave to the nations their inheritance” and that “Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob and his allotted heritage” (32:8-9)."
Excuse me, is your Canaanite theology simply based on the theory that instead of being a rhetorical variatio sermonis Dt 32:8-9 reflects "an earlier state"? Bc, this is guesswork at its most flimsy. And, again, impossible except to an Atheist, or perhaps a Deist. Oh, btw, a believer in Spinoza's divinity would not be too far from a Deist either.
"A passage like this reflects the early beliefs of the Canaanites and Israelites in polytheism or, more accurately, henotheism (the belief in many gods with a focus on a single supreme deity)."
I know the difference, yes ... it seems you just confirmed my suspicion, you did not get this from a well defined Canaanite theology and then the relative dates of texts for either, you get this from misanalysing the Bible as many layers of different and even conflicting theologies. Bad move. It comes from the Protestant habit of misanalysing Catholicism into a NT Biblical layer and later accretions (pagan or scholastic) supposed not to be Christian. Equally bad and impossible in the light of Matthew 28:16-20.
"The claim that Israel always only acknowledged one god is a later belief cast back on the early days of Israel's development in Canaan."
Your claim is a very much later belief cast back onto the sequence of events. I believe Biblically tradited history over reconstructed "history". I generally believe traditions over reconstructions, not just the Bible.
"It is generally accepted in the modern day, however, that Yahweh originated in southern Canaan as a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon and the Shasu, as nomads, most likely acquired their worship of him during their time in the Levant."
It is accepted = you are not saying who accepts sth. My professor of Latin mentioned, the passive serves to avoid being precise on who would be subject of the active form.
It is generally accepted - a fake claim that everyone or most people accept it, since not being precise about among whom this is "general" - a bunch of apostates being a fairly sad excuse for argument from authority, however many universities they may sway control over, in the relevant department (I knew this was the case in Lund since I was 13).
It is generally accepted in the modern day = adding Chronological snobbery.
"Yahweh in the Canaanite Pantheon"
Seems you are quoting an essay with a title.
"The biblical narrative, ... (Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Masoretic Text)."
Repeating the argument from misreading the text.
"The Canaanites, like all ancient civilizations, worshipped many gods"
More than you can know.
"the Israelites who, in time, will make him their supreme and only deity;"
According to what argument...?
"but it is clear he existed beforehand as a lesser Canaanite god."
Clear from what, still waiting for the argument ...?
"Yahweh, according to Amzallag, was transformed"
Amzallag, according to Adonai was transformed from nothing to a person, united to flesh inherited from his parent's genes and his mothers metabolism, and that would be thousands of years after this guess of Amzallag supposedly happened.
[Omitting comparison between Adonai and Vulcan]
And what are the proofs of this?
"The Israelites remained a henotheistic people through the time of the Judges, which predates the rise of the monarchy, and throughout the time of the Kingdom of Israel (c.1080-c. 722)."
In fact, this is untrue. There was monotheism and there was idolatry and they remained in a swing between the two.