"Withdraw obedience"

The Debate That EXPOSED Martin Luther as a HERETIC (The Leipzig Debate)
The Michael Lofton Show | 21.I.2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOL3FP-4zm0

... the Duke interrupts 2:25 and he says look why does it even matter 2:27 it doesn't matter if the papacy is by 2:30 divine right or a human institution he's 2:32 the pope and we got to obey him no 2:34 matter what! So Luther interjected and 2:36 said he agrees with the Duke and he says 2:38 look either way the pope is the head of 2:41 the church so yeah we shouldn't disobey 2:43 him. Now Eck immediately saw through this 2:45 and he called Luther out he said this is 2:47 deceptive because he knew you can 2:50 withdraw obedience if the papacy is 2:52 merely a human institution

One can also withdraw obedience from someone who seems to expose himself as not a real carrier of the office, since heretical.

When Pope John XXII came down on the side of Soul Sleep and perhaps Eternal fates finally decided only at Doomsday (which some Orthos would agree to), one saint threatened to withdraw obedience.

The final outcome was that Pope John XXII made amends on his deathbed.

7:16 Trent (session IV) agreed with Luther's point there.

sententiam quam tenuit atque tenet ecclesia ...

7:44 Please note, in 1519, Constance was 101 years back in time, and it hadn't been contested by anyone except the ones it condemned.

"Vatican II" condemned no one and is contested by lots in a way shorter time.

What Luther couldn't do at all is what Sedevacantists and Orthopapists (Conclavist as well as Palmarian) are doing with V-II.

17:38 It so happens, Exsurge Domine didn't excommunicate Luther. It threatened him with excommunication unless he recanted.

It was Decet Romanum Pontificem that excommunicated Luther.

18:04 Actually, it's their differences and loseness that go back to the Leipzig debate.

But the tenets go back to denying Holy Mass. Lutherans deny it's a sacrifice, but affirms the real presence. Zwingliites denies Jesus is even there at all in any other than a symbolic sense, many fall in between about the Presence, but all deny it's a sacrifice.

18:27 One can win a debate with an argument that is on some issue erroneous.

Eck was not quite fair to Luther, who was actually agreeing the Bible was an authority (except the books he couldn't stand) ... even over himself. You can share the analyses of Eck, but that is not what Exsurge Domine threatened or Decet Romanum Pontificem excommunicated him for. Pope Leo X was more concerned with content than procedure.

Has Hamas exposed the Zionist régime between October 7 2023 and now? Well, even if they have, that doesn't justify what they did that day.

When it comes to handling debates, I think Tyndale was enjoying a better sparring partner than Luther. Latomus was materially erroneous about what Romans 3 meant, if we take the verdict of Trent to be exclusive, but he was materially and formally right about the faith, since Ephesians 2:8 through 10 says the same thing.

Eck's argument has been turned against converts by Lutherans and Anglicans "you think you are smarter than the Church God providentially placed you in?"