I was certainly not willing to change my mind when hearing this, but I was willing to take debate coming back:
The Third Judgment: What Really Happened at Babel
BLK SHP Bible Talk | 31 July 2026
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRGVe3iUyiQ
These are my comments and at the end we find BLK SHP Bible Talk doesn't share my disposition:
4:20 Shinar is Southern Mesopotamia?
Why Southern ... if they journeyed from the East, not from the North, and started in the Mountains of Armenia, Northern Mesopotamia is a much better fit.
I think I have miqqedem with all translations prior to a Swedish one in 1700 on my side.
[Bible of Charles XII translates "österut" instead of "från östern" or "österifrån".]
5:04 Before we even get to chapter 11?
As in, there is no chronological overlap between the two narratives?
8:43 Where does Genesis say idolatry happened at this point in history?
I mean, as normally understood, as a form of religion. Self idolatry is another matter.
9:48 "similar amount of space"
Well, no.
For instance, if the Hebrews preserved Hebrew because they refused to do Nimrod's work, that would mean they were somewhere in the margins, where they would not get the full story, but salient important detail ... the edges of the puzzle, if you like.
In the Ark the covenant was with all eight aboard, and so the ancestors of Moses had a very "first seat" view. Giving them much more detail.
10:54, ah, you mean Thera and Nachor as idolaters would point to the time of Babel?
No. Not in a LXX timeline. In the chronology of the Roman Martyrology for Christmas Day (He was born so and so many years after such and such events before you come to "in the 42nd year of Augustus, in the sixth age, when the world was at peace"), Genesis 11 is LXX without the second Cainan. Peleg would have been born 2608 BC.
He died 2218 BC, and in 2165 BC, Nachor, Abram's grandpa, was born.
Babel happened when Peleg was born.
And nowhere does it say Nachor and Thera were born into idolatry, one can assume that Acts 7:4 doesn't refer to when Thera physically died, but when he died spiritually by becoming an idolater, when Abraham was 75 years old, so, 1941 BC.
Babel 2608, first named idolater 1941 BC.
12:55 Ah, OK, Genesis 11 rewinds the clock to before the different languages, OK, I'm good with that.
13:21 You are forgotting what you just said.
If Babel is a flashback, the disunion of languages in Genesis 10 is not something which already happened before. Or even started to happen before.
13:57 That clearly depends on when in archaeology you put Abraham leaving Ur.
I put Abraham banning Ishmael 50 years after Negev had a city near Beersheba that disappeared archaeologically in 3700 BC. I put Genesis 14 at archaeologically 3500 BC.
Why? Because Amorrhaeans were in En Geddi. They were attacked. Now, the only or latest possible archaeological population is the one that's dated 3500 BC based on reed mats used in the evacuation of temple treasures.
15:15 OK, by now you have an economic interest in disagreeing with me.
Not sure how much though.
15:46 My evidence for people spreading outward is, Babel, a k a Göbekli Tepe, launched the agricultural revolution.
A certain narrow path which functioned as a trap for wild beasts near Göbekli Tepe became a corral, allowing people to settle in the area, instead of hunting, as most of the economy was, barring Noah's farm and its débacle, and towards the end of Babel, wheat was being sown.
16:15 Yamnaya ...
Two huge problems for your reading.
1) Since Iberian was Basque, and Spain was settled from Yamnaya, Yamnaya isn't the probable origin of Indo-European languages, but of the single language Basque plus lots of substrate below Indo-European ones closer "home" ...
2) In my chronology, where I have given a good argument for Genesis 14, and at least some for placing Babel in Göbekli Tepe, Yamnaya 3300 to 2600 BC translates to after Genesis 14 to after Joseph died.
- 1881 BC
- Terah died
- 1877 BC
- 83.97 pmC, dated as 3321 BC
- 1857 BC
- 84.371 pmC, dated as 3262 BC
- 1856 BC
- Jacob and Esau born
...
- 1687
- Joseph dies.
- 1678 BC
- 89.449 pmC, dated as 2600 BC
For full tables with some explanation of my method, go to the blog Creation vs. Evolution, crea vs evolu dot blogspot dot com, and look up December 2024.
[Newer Tables: Preliminaries · Flood to Joseph in Egypt · Joseph in Egypt to Fall of Troy.]
16:33 You are misunderstanding the relation between archaeology and linguistics.
One cannot usually trace one language or its ancestry to one place thousands of years before it's written down.
The learned men are comparing spreads of populations and spreads of languages, but the earliest written Indo-European ones are Hittite, Mycenean Greek, and the Aryan vocabulary of the Mitanni.
All three in or near Turkey and at least the first two I mentioned West of Göbekli Tepe. BUT c. 1000 years after Babel.
18:22 How long after the Flood do you put this?
I find representatives of all mankind feasible between 350 and 401 after the Flood, i e Noah's death to Peleg's birth, with Göbekli Tepe built in 40 of the 51 years, and for that, there needs to have been sufficient people, and also for people staying home and not going there.
8 * 1.02^101 = 59 8 * 1.05^101 = 1105
101 years after the Flood, 5 % annual population growth would not suffice to more than little over 1000 people.
401 years after the Flood, we don't need that much:
8 * 1.02^401 = 22 478
More than twenty times more, just for 2 % annual population growth.
8 * 1.05^401 = 2 511 880 150
Two billion people with 5 % is way more than needed, and even more than probable.
531 years could also work:
8 * 1.02^531 = 294 972
Same blog, November 2024.
20:01 Actually, guess work.
Apart from a few divine names, like Juppiter having matches in Greek and Indian, or, without the Father part, in Germanic. But Tewes daeg doesn't translate Dies Jovis, it translates Dies Martis.
The idea of a "tripartite society and religion" isn't matched by all Indo-European cultures and is too common in itself to be a specifically Indo-European invention.
Tried to add this Josephus quote to a comment about Nimrod being more like Anthon La Vey and Vlad Tepec than the new high priest of an old false religion:
Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers!
And then I discovered, all my comments were gone. First the added comment below the other didn't get posted, then I renewed to post it as a separate one, then I saw a comment section with my comments gone.
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