... on "Pope Francis" quote, Quora

Answering Less Than Half of WLC's Diatribe Against YEC · ... on "Pope Francis" quote, Quora

Q

Was Pope Francis misquoted when he said "God is not a divine being or a magician, but the creator who brought everything to life"?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Pope-Francis-misquoted-when-he-said-God-is-not-a-divine-being-or-a-magician-but-the-creator-who-brought-everything-to-life/answer/Joshua-Engel

C on Q

Or does it mean that he denies God's divinity?

The full, possibly misquoted, quote goes:

"God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life," the pope said. "Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve."

Joshua Engel

worked at The Rude Mechanicals

Written Oct 30, 2014

Upvoted by Anthony Zarrella

Well... yeah.

Of necessity, it was translated for Americans. Francis spoke in Italian. And what he actually said was:

E così la creazione è andata avanti per secoli e secoli, millenni e millenni finché è diventata quella che conosciamo oggi, proprio perché Dio non è un demiurgo o un mago, ma il Creatore che dà l’essere a tutti gli enti.

From an Italian-language newspaper ("Il big bang non contraddice la creazione")

Which Google translates as:

Thus, the creation has been going on for centuries, millennia and millennia until it became what we know today, because God is not a creator [second choice translation: demiurge] or a wizard, but the Creator who gives being to all entities.

"Divine being" is not a particularly good translation. "Creator" is obviously not good, either, since it contradicts Creatore later in the sentence, though it is at least a literal translation of the Italian. "Demiurge" is better, since it's the meaning Francis intended, a Platonic idea of a subordinate creator who is explicitly not the montheistic deity. It is a divine being, but it's stupid to translate it as "divine being" in the same way that it would be stupid to translate "Josh is not a banana" as "Josh is not made of matter" just because bananas are, in fact, made of matter.

In other words: apparently #ihatesciencewriters applies beyond just science writers. It seems that journalists of all stripes are prone to writing obtuse bullshit for clicks.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

23h ago

“ "Demiurge" is better, since it's the meaning Francis intended, a Platonic idea of a subordinate creator who is explicitly not the montheistic deity. “

If “demiurge” is explicitly not the monotheistic deity, why need there be any misunderstanding about the monotheistic deity being a “demiurge” in the first place?

But as a matter of Greek, I think demiourgos means sth like “craftsman” (but my Greek has been dormant for 20+ years, don’t just take my word for it) and God is explicitly compared to a potter in Jeremiah.

So, while in Plotin’s Neoplatonism specifically Demiurge is not the High God, it can be used as a synonym to Creator.

Problem with sentence is not merely this inclarity, but also continuation, in which it seems to imply that a Young Earth Creationist idea about how God created would somehow reduce Him to “demiurge” (?!) or “magician”. Why?

Joshua Engel

19h ago

The problem with the translation is the part that says “God is not a divine being”, as in “God is not any sort of divine being”. That would be a pretty outrageous thing for a Pope to say. Except that it’s not even close to what he said.

Even in the translation, which says “not a divine being or a magician”. It would be hard to read that as merely denying the divinity of God. Exactly what it would imply is unclear. But it’s certainly not what the original sentence meant.

The Pope’s original sentence is clear enough: God is greater than a mere mechanic. The implication is that Young Earth Creationism focuses on the mundane parts of creation, which are better explained by evolution and other scientific disciplines. The Pope is trying to focus attention on ensoulment, or some other aspect of life that goes beyond the mere nuts-and bolts atoms-and-molecules things that the Young Earth Creationists demand.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

2m ago

OK, but in that precise case he is setting up a very vile strawman about Young Earth Creationism.

It is namely NOT limited to atoms and molecules, it involves primal creation of mass and matter and energy quite as much as ensoulment of persons, both human and - if one can speak of “ensoulment” there - angelic ones, as much as the correct putting together of atoms and molecules into inter alia bodies capable of being more or less ensouled.

Also, why would the “mundane parts” be better explained by evolution?

Is God too fine and spiritual for piecing together genitalia? Did He invent evolution as an intermediary so as not to “get His hands dirty”? Well, if that is the reason, whoever thinks that is Gnostic.

Or if it is that evolution has better evidence than special creation, Young Earth Creationists beg to differ, at least as far as the kinds go.

And how would differing on it be to reduce God to a magician?

Even as to Demiurge in Platonic sense, even a Demiurge would not be a magician merely reshuffling with miraculous quickness what was already there, since in Platonism it is precisely the Demiurge who creates matter - but not the ideas which are reflected in it.

In Christianity, as understood by St Thomas Aquinas, God creates both, He thinks through the ideas in His eternal wisdom as well as creating matter and embodying the ideas in it.

Joshua Engel

6m ago

I’m really not sure why you’re picking an argument with me about creationism. The question was about a matter of translation, and I answered it. I have nothing polite to say about young earth creationists and do not wish to be baited into violating Quora’s BN/BR rule.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"right now"

It has not occurred to you that my follow up question was not by the original questioner and that I for my part was got it what was wrong with the translation and was interested in quite another topic?

If so, it is perhaps true you have nothing polite to say about Catholic Young Earth Creationists, and I would for my part not have squealed about any infringement on your probable level on the Bunny Bear policy.

Update:

Since yesterday when I posted it, some of above comments were deleted for violation of the Bunny Bear policy, and when I was going to appeal (which I did, exchange may be a further update or own post), I obviously looked at the question again and saw another thing.

Comment

on original Q, not under Joshua's answer.

Joaozinho Martins

Oct 31, 2014

Actually, the Pope stated: "L'evoluzione nella natura non contrasta con la nozione di Creazione, perchè l'evoluzione presuppone la creazione degli esseri che si evolvono= Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because the development requires the creation of beings that evolve". I don't think the Pope by 'evolution' here meant 'evolution of man from monkeys' but rather his focus was on human development: 'l'evoluzione presuppone la creazione degli esseri che si evolvono". Right? Next, the Pope stated: " Quando leggiamo nella Genesi il racconto della Creazione rischiamo di immaginare che Dio sia stato un mago, con tanto di bacchetta magica in grado di fare tutte le cose. Ma non è così. Egli ha creato gli esseri e li ha lasciati sviluppare secondo le leggi interne che Lui ha dato ad ognuno, perché si sviluppassero, perché arrivassero alla propria pienezza= When we read in the Genesis account of Creation we are in danger of imagining that God was a magician, complete with a magic wand that can do all things. But he does not. He created beings and let them develop in accordance with the internal laws that He has given to each one....". Here again, I think the misunderstood Pope was focusing on the 'evolving nature' of the human development and not on the so-called Darwinian evolution of men from some imaginary fake anthropoid ancestors! I don't think the Pope, in his message, has discredited BIBLICAL CREATION TRUTH given to us in Genesis 1 nor did he say we should not take Genesis account of creation literally. Anyway, the reader can check for himself by reading the whole text of the Pope's original Message in Italian by visiting: [second of below links].

[Links to:]

Barnes and Noble : BIBLICAL CREATION TRUTH
by JOAOZINHO da S. F. A. MARTINS
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/biblical-creation-truth-joaozinho-da-s-f-a-martins/1109442897

alla Pontificia Accademia delle Scienze. . "Il big bang non contraddice la creazione"
lunedì 27 ottobre 2014
https://www.avvenire.it/chiesa/pagine/big-bang-non-contraddice-intervento-dio

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1m ago

“ I don't think the Pope by 'evolution' here meant 'evolution of man from monkeys' but rather his focus was on human development:”

Disingenious, if so he would not have been talking about “evolution in nature” but of “development of man”. The following words are totally compatible with his meaning very small cells developing to pluricellular beings, vertebrates, fish, amphibians, land animals, mammals, primates, monkeys, apes, men.

Also, he very much is polemising against a straightforward and patristic reading of Genesis:

“ When we read in the Genesis account of Creation we are in danger of imagining that God was a magician, complete with a magic wand that can do all things. But he does not. He created beings and let them develop in accordance with the internal laws that He has given to each one...."

What exactly would the “magic wand” reference be about if NOT making for instance man, directly, rather than slowly evolving from sth else?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now / 6 min ago

“I don't think the Pope, in his message, has discredited BIBLICAL CREATION TRUTH given to us in Genesis 1 nor did he say we should not take Genesis account of creation literally.”

No, the Pope has not discredited Biblical Creation Truth, but Bergoglio by trying to do so has discredited himself as “Pope”.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Btw, I just looked at the link Biblical Creation Truth and saw it was to a book by yourself. If that book included taking Bergoglio for Pope, I think that interview discredited that part of the book.

Also, what exactly do you mean by human development?