Friday, March 13, 2020

Suris Misrepresenting CMI and Climate Debate

Sarfati's GRIFT Could MELT the Icecaps! ATHEISM Causes Climate Change!?
Suris | 11.III.2020

5:46 It would in fact be impossible to ruin the earth for a long time and thoroughly ... but it's not impossible to do things that would lead up to there unless for instance Doomsday intervenes.

Apocalypse 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth.

So, such and such a network, Capitalist, Communist, Gay Liberal, etc destroys or corrupt the earth, God will destroy them - before they completely destroy the earth.

Meaning, the non-intervention of God at such a point might lead to an earth that actually were destroyed. It's just that Doomsday would come first.

9:09 Apart from the sham medicine "psychiatry" where disbeliving evolution is a symptom, nothing in modern medicine comes from evolution.

Some things do come from observations about adaptation to environment, including observations on antibiotics resistent bacteria, but this is a very far cry from molecules to man evolution.

And when it comes to Adam, there is a very clear difference between maintaining he existed, was specially created and is in his generation unique with his wife Eve first and universal ancestor of men, including Homo erectus, Denisovans, Neanderthals, and maintaining man slowly evolved through these races and was perhaps not fully human before reaching Homo sapiens sapiens, and trying to combine these is easier given as a blanket statement than actually fleshed out into a credible scenario.

Haruhi Suzumiya
Psychiatry is medicine based
Psychologists can't prescribe pills
Psychiatrists can.
Medicine psychiatry is a oxymoron.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Haruhi Suzumiya Did you mean tautology?

I did not deny psychiatry counts as medicine, I am just pointing out it functions as a sham one.

Schizophrenia used to mean a process from hebephrenic, over paranoid, to catatonic.

To me, the only part of it that would have been there without psychiatry and psychiatrically minded non-specialists, is hebephrenic. "Not the paranoid type? That will come" - from a publicity for Stalk. Well, it comes to people exposed to stalking of psychiatry and its allies too.

14:13 Morris and Whitcombe were not first in the field.

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Les Prédécesseurs catholiques de Henry Morris (jusqu'à 1920)

Mangenot enumerates these, dismisses them 26 years after the last he enumerates, and 26 years approximately to the first cases of clerical pedophilia in France.

Romans 1:[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. [26] For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.

14:31 If you found a rabbit in precambrian strata, you would simply not classify them as precambrian ...

I can live with Permian creatures having different biotopes from Eocene ones in the years leading up to the Flood. And no, in land vertebrates, you never do find two fossil bearing strata one strictly on top of the other on the locations where they are fossil bearing.

In sea creatures, you do find whales over trilobites or elasmosaurs over trilobites ... for reasons perhaps easy to understand with some understanding of sea life (including the theory necessary for Flood Geology that the seas were shallower than now, since that is where the Flood water went when they deepened).

Creation vs. Evolution : Archaeology vs Vertabrate Palaeontology in Geology

14:55 The Flood was not an instantaneous event, during the Flood, there were plenty of occasions for layers to both form by sedimentation and then dissolve by erosion, very rapid such.

Like where there are lots of chalk and sandstone layers on top of each other.

When it comes to one layer of palaeontology in land vertebrates, we have so far one layer in each location. On locations where the pre-Flood world was land.

15:31 predictable?

Letter A
Demopolis Formation, Alabama, US, Upper Cretaceous (Middle Campanian)
Prince Creek Formation, Colville Group, Alaska, US, Upper Cretaceous (Upper Campanian)


Black Prince Limestone Formation, Arizona, Upper Carboniferous (Westphalian A-B; Late Morrowan or earliest Derryan; Bashkirian)
Tecovas Formation, Chinle Group, Texas & Arizona, Upper Triassic (Carnian)
Chinle Formation, Arizona and New Mexico, Upper Triassic (Latest Carnian-Early Norian)
Moenave Formation, Arizona, Lower Jurassic (Hettangian?)
Kayenta Formation, Lower Jurassic [Hettangian-Sinemurian-Plienbaschian]
Navajo Sandstone Formation, Glen Canyon Group, Lower Jurassic [Plienbaschian-Toarcian]
Turney Ranch Formation, Arizona, Lower-Upper Cretaceous [Albian-Cenomanian]

Letter C

Vaqueros Formation, Early Miocene (Burdigalian)
Modelo Formation, Late Miocene (Tortonian)


Harding Formation, Colorado, Middle-Late Ordovician (Caradoc)
Sangre de Cristo Formation, Colorado, US, Upper Carboniferous (Missourian, Kasimovian)
Morrison Formation, Colorado, Upper Jurassic (Kimmeridgian-Tithonian)
Purgatoire Formation, Colorado, Lower Cretaceous (Aptian-Albian)
Denver Formation, Colorado, Upper Cretaceous (Upper Maastrichtian)
Colorado, USA Eocene (Orellan)

Portland Fm, Lo. Jur. [Plienbasch-Toarc.]

Letters G to L
Blue Buff Formation, Middle Eocene (Bartonian)


Mazon Creek fauna, Illinois, US, Upper Carboniferous (Westphalian C-D) (Moscovian)
Modesto Formation, Illinois, Upper Carboniferous (Missourian, Kasimovian)


Stanton Formation (formerly Admiral Formation), Kansas, Upper Pennsylvanian (Missourian)
Calhouns Shale Formation, Kansas, Upper Carboniferous (Virgilian, Gzhelian)
Niobrara Formation, Kansas, US, Upper Cretaceous (Upper Coniacian- Lower Campanian)


Cook Mountain Formation, Middle Eocene (Bartonian)
Yazoo Clay Formation, Upper Eocene (Priabonian)

Letter M, and here I stop:


Arundel Clay Formation, Potomac Group, Maryland, Lower Cretaceous (Aptian)
Calvert Formation, Middle Miocene (Serravallian)
Saint Marys Formation, Late Miocene (Tortonian)


Portland Formation, Massachusetts, US, Lower Jurassic (Hettangian-Plienbaschian)
Upper Portland Formation, Massachusetts & Connecticut, US, Lower Jurassic (Plienbaschian-Toarcian)


Heath Formation (Bear Gulch Limestone), Montana, Carboniferous, Mississippian, (Arnsbergian)
Morrison Formation, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Montana, United States, Upper Jurassic (Kimmeridgian-Tithonian)
Cloverly Formation, Montana & Wyoming, Lower Cretaceous (Aptian-Albian)
Blackleaf Formation, Upper Cretaceous (Cenomanian) Montana
Judith River Formation, Montana Group, Montana, US, Upper Cretaceous (Upper Campanian)
Two Medicine Formation, Montana, US, Upper Cretaceous (Campanian)
Hell Creek Formation, Montana, US, Upper Cretaceous (Maastrichtian)
Tullock Formation, Montana, US, Early Paleocene
Montana, USA Eocene (Chadronian)

Source, Palaeocritti:

Would you mind telling me what is predictable about this hotchpotch?


Hans-Georg Lundahl
15:18 Plate tectonic may have been inspired by an Old Earth hypothesis, but are definitely transposable to Universal Flood theory.

Haruhi Suzumiya
I mean the pre Triassic period had a flood where it was raining for 2 million years but something as a universal flood for 41 days that wouldn't even happen as told when a pre Triassic period rains are rarely acknowledged as occurring.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Haruhi Suzumiya First, I think you consider the Flood as only based on rain.

Reread these two verses of Genesis 7:11-12 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were opened: And the rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

all the fountains of the great deep were broken up = sth a bit reminiscent of plate tectonics?

Second, you probably consider Flood as describing a process impossible since needing to go to Mount Everest heights. We usually consider it as possible and Mount Everest and a lot of other mountains to have reached their height by post-Flood fairly rapid plate tectonics.

Third, not sure what your scenario is supposed to mean. Permian is on the Evolutionist view before Triassic, and it's a bit hard imagining land animals of Permian, even any of them, to survive 2 million years of unrelenting rain. Did you mean pre-Cambrian?

Haruhi Suzumiya
@Hans-Georg Lundahl it leads to the age of dinosaurs.

Source Chonday [sharing next video*] That Time it Rained for Two Million Years

Pangaea became very wet,

* [this video:

That Time It Rained for Two Million Years
PBS Eons | 22.V.2018

which I have not seen yet. But yes, it is about beginning of Triassic or just before!]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Haruhi Suzumiya Thanks for link, but how is any animal supposed to have survived in that very wet time?

15:47 It so happens, I have so far not been disappointed in the prediction that sea fauna may come in several layers in same place, land vertebrates in only one, and no mixing of sea fauna and land vertebrates, except very minor sea fauna, like one can imagine mussles or shrinmps coming with mud to bury some land vertebrates.

I recall there would have been a place in Mexico, California La Baja, where Cretaceous Ceratopsians lie under Palaeocene shrimps or crayfish.

But you might find an exception, take a look at this site:

Palaeocritti : By Location

And no, it is not a Creationist site!

Feel free to use this site in parallel:

Paleofieldguide : By Country

19:46 While Sarfati's explanation ultimately depends on the global flood, his closer explanation is an observed fact.

1200 the climate was so warm one could grow grapes in England, South of it.
5th–6th February 1658 the climate was so cold that Charles X Gustav of Sweden crossed Great Belt with an army on horseback riding over the ice.

Interesting that you are so much more interested in debating his ultimate principles which you dispute over debating his observations about known historic fact ...

20:01 Why are you not taking your tirade against the Flood on a video the CMI do about the Flood and its evidence?

Perhaps you don't care that they should be able to argue against you ...?

Or, since you would be doing it against them, arguing more effectively than you?

22:14 I'd agree on your view on Greta's legitimacy, relative to that of her message.

"using a child for a political message"

First of all, at 17, Greta is legally a minor, and may not yet marry, which is a wrongdoing perpetrated in part in 1892 when the age was raised from 15 to 17, and in part 1915 when it was raised from 17 to 18. This does not make her a child.

Second, Jeanne d'Arc tried to reach the King of France at 16, and then tried again next year, after getting a refusal.

So, Puritanism on this front is Anti-French and ultimately probably indebted to an English view of St. Joan no longer held by Catholics.

24:46 Agreed.

In fact, some have considered the combustion engine a disaster for other reasons too ... like road kills. Hedgehogs squeezed to death under car wheels aren't pretty. Some stags have been as traumatised by cars as Bambi by a hunter, not to mention, the drivers have also not quite been in a good shape everytime.

Indeed, some people have even died in driving accidents.

Ross Hill comes to mind. Btw, he may be a saint, I think he interceded for me on an occasion, so no disrespect because he died in a car accident, please!

T H E N we have the question of what combustion engines do with trade and therefore also local production.

I think there was a comment where I commented on Suris presuming a viewpoint like that of a Southron Fundie as per Suris' known acquaintances.

I answered that CMI staff definitely were not rednecks, excepting the one Robert Carter.

I am not sure how it disappeared ...

  • did I overlook it? or perhaps not get time to post it?
  • did some internet admin imagine (or pretend to "imagine") I had gone bonkers when posting so much? (Bpi is a nice library, but librarians have some tendency to Commie leanings ...)
  • or did Suris find this jarred too much with the misrepresentation he was, de facto, giving of CMI, so he removed it? That would imply the misrepresentation was intentional ...

Either way, here is the link to CMI's page

Who we are: the people involved
Australia | Canada | New Zealand | South Africa | UK/Europe | United States

I am sad this involves not being able to give my personal assessments of some ... the main ones were Robert Carter (the one redneck) being my favourite enemy on CMI, and Russell Grigg unfortunately blocking their Catholic conversion, since he's too devoted to the Reformers.

25:23 No, that is not hypocritical.

The founder of CMI is Dr Carl Wieland M.B., B.S.

Dr Carl Wieland M.B., B.S.

Here is an article from a medical perspective by him:

Your appendix … it’s there for a reason
by Ken Ham and Carl Wieland | This article is from
Creation 20(1):41–43, December 1997

Here is another article of his germain to your pov on the topic:

Algae to oil
by Jonathan O’Brien and Dr Carl Wieland | This article is from
Creation 37(3):55, July 2015

["it is thanks to the Industry / INdustrialism they hate"]

25:54 "that they exist in the first place"

Disagreeing with Sarfati.

It is because of Genesis 1:28 and of men and women obeying that, that they or anyone else exists.

Industry reducing child mortality by providing improved hygiene is an asset, but not the ultimate reason, and as humanity surviving in the Middle Ages proves, not a sine qua non.

"that they have a future"

In the Middle Ages, if you were willing to dig with a spade, you had a future.

In the 50's, if you were willing to stand at an assemblage line, you had a future.

Today, if you have extensive knowhow in computers, you have a future ... supposing there are too few others who have that.

27:43 Uranium is also limited quantity, much more than crude oil, if the algae experiment is correctly assessed, and on top of it, it is hasardous.

Harrisburg. Chernobyl. Fukushima.

And its byproducts are used to build Atomic bombs too.

28:03 Both are from Australia, and Australia uses Celsius.

So, assume they mean Celsius.

32:13 The religious state of Soviet Union had sth to do with both economy and disasters.

They did not make Heaven their goal, they made progress their ULTIMATE goal, as Christians do with Heaven (or should).

They were too eager to get it, and this paid off in bad economic policies (Holodomor), bad manners to opponents (Katyn, and a massacre in East Carelia some are now trying to push responsibility to Finns for), and immature use of technology, specifically Uranium related one.

Soviet spies from the time when Harrisburg was being made came back with incomplete US technology with none of the safety measures, and ... well, you get the general picture. Soviets just couldn't allow US to have an upper hand in the race for nuclear progress. Obviously, where people are allowed to be Fundies, they cannot be good enough in science to compete with us true believers in Evolution, or sth like that.

32:38 That "Christian" perspective is actually not born out from Apocalypse 11:18 where the Twenty-Four ancients are adressing God "[thou] shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth"

On my view, part of the reason for the Flood was, nukings in the Mahabharata War had made earth uninhabitable, unless some parts sank into deep Oceanic basins and some other parts were covered in deep mud.

32:48 Stewardship thinking is common among:

  • Catholics
  • Orthodox
  • Anglicans and Lutherans and Methodists
  • Jews (Sarfati is, I have gathered, a Messianic Jew or sth?)

It is also often though not as universally seen among:

  • Calvinists
  • Baptists

It is also quasi universally practised by:

  • Mennonites
  • Amish

You know, some of the good guys in Terence Hill's They Call Me Renegade.

The other perspective you refer to is rather minoritarian.

33:12 The nickname "Communism" usually refers to a Marxist society of the type Marxists themselves would call "Dictatorship of the Proletariat".

Marxism is pretty well devoted to Evolution and Big Bang belief (historically usually with atheism), about as much as Spain has Catholicism (or had) as state religion.

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