Thursday, December 22, 2022

Bible Misreading from Gospel Broadcasting Coalition

This one is so bad, I am not linking. You have the title, the author and the URL - I am not making it easier than that to get to watch it. Some of my early comments are answered later on, but finally the author fails as contradicting sound Catholic tradition, and also he is using the wrong Bible translations.

What Does The Bible Say About Drinking Alcohol?
Gospel Broadcasting Network | 9 Sept. 2022

1:01 Oh, no. Wine then, as wine now, was fermented.

The wine at the last Supper was not miraculously made into wine, and wine harvest was Sukkot - September / October, this year straddling both months.

It is technically impossible for wine to be unfermented 5 months after the wine harvest under the then conditions.

Plus St. Paul mentions wine for the stomach ... grape juice is probably not the best thing for it if you have a stomach condition.

1:10 Between grape juice and vinegar, you have alcoholic wine.

Alcohol gets fermented from grape sugars by yeasts.

Acetic acid gets fermented from alcohol by bacteria.

1:23 I read the text of what you yellowed from Aristotle.

Not a single line of it indicates he considered non-alcoholic drinks as wine.

1:35 Noting that "permanent must" is not considered as "real wine" by Pliny.

1:42 "sweet wine" is not made by not fermenting, but by harvesting so late that the sugar content exceeds what can be fermented - they still contain alcohol.

In Germany one calls this Spätlese, in France there is vendange tardive, and I looked it up, these are actually stronger than some other wines.

2:01 The juice of the grape is called wine because the one way it is kept available for consumption is fermented.

You are cherry-picking quotes with occultation of context to make a dishonest point.

2:13 Note, newly pressed from the grape.

It doesn't stay must. Not between sukkot and seder, and not between wine harvest in Ephesus or Crete and when the guy needed wine for his stomach.

7:01 The difference is, "getting drunk" is a later stage than euphoria.

7:31 No, the idea that "drunkenness begins at the first drink" is a puritan heresy.

If one continues, and depending on acquired tolerance, that first drink has laid the ground for drunkenness, but it is not in itself drunkenness.

You get this view of drunkenness from the Qoran, basically.

7:45 You are overreading the meaning of an inchoative verb.

It is a process - but it is a process from after euphoria which is the initial effect.

The Bible doesn't define alcohol as a toxin, and therefore is not concerned with "intoxication" which in its turn is a dubious way of dealing with the concept.

The reason why the inchoative is used is like in English "do not GET drunk" - it's useless to tell someone "don't BE drunk" if he already is.

Eli tells Hannah "How long wilt thou be drunken? take away thy wine from thee," - in other words, he's not blaming her for being drunk right then, but for being it in the temple, and telling her to GET sober.

Not immediately, but before revisiting the temple.

It turned out, she wasn't drunk.

8:36 Again - the Bible was not concerned with the medical jargon of intoxicated.

Tipsy is not drunk.

Numquam inveni ebrietatem, saepe crapulam. St. Augustine from memory.

9:06 Does the Bible really speak of complete abstinence here?

1 Thess 5:6-8 In fact, St. Paul contradicts your interpretation of the inchoative verb.

καὶ οἱ μεθυσκόμενοι νυκτὸς μεθύουσιν

The first verb is the inchoative - you said inceptive, same thing - and uses a form about those who are doing it.
The second verb is about BEING drunk - in a way making it clear it is not about drinking wine to make the food more digestible.

But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

In the previous letter he had specifically said sobriety does not require abstinence. I Tim 5:23.

Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thy frequent infirmities.

Be sober is in Nestle Aland is ... νῆφε,
Σὺ δὲ νῆφε ἐν πᾶσιν, κακοπάθησον, ἔργον ποίησον εὐαγγελιστοῦ, τὴν διακονίαν σου πληροφόρησον.

Now, in some contexts it had meant "without wine" - but that would involve drinkofferings ... a very special context.

When Strong speaks of "abstaining from wine" that could be due to the heresy you are an exponent of.

9:12 You are aware that Gerhard Kittel was basically a Nazi?

9:27 ... and that William Edwy Vine was a Plymouth Brother?

9:31 John MacArthur is Anti-Catholic and more than once incompetent.

Certainly, the case of drinkofferings you have "nephalios" such being wineless, but this does not mean that nephein means total abstinence from wine.

9:41 No, not one of these passages I Thess 5:5-8, I Peter 1:13 and 5:8, II Tim 4:5 ban social drinking.

On top of that, II Tim is to a bishop who has an extra duty of sobriety.

I Tim 5:22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.

Guess what - St. Paul had imposed hands on him and expected him to be celibate.

10:09 Oh dear ... proverbs 23:31 comes after verse 30:
Surely they that pass their time in wine, and study to drink of their cups.

Meaning, what King Solomon is after is setting one's mind from morning to evening or hours on hours at night on wine.

Habaccuc 2:15 Woe to him that giveth drink to his friend, and presenteth his gall, and maketh him drunk, that he may behold his nakedness.

doesn't curse serving wine, but serving deliberately too much to someone who is likely to get actually drunk (normal, modern sense), as in ... we might have an idea why Noah cursed Chanaan - if Cham gazed, Chanaan had probably helped him by serving too much of a drink he or his father had tested more than his grandfather and better knew the dangers of.

10:15 I Peter 4:3 For the time past is sufficient to have fulfilled the will of the Gentiles, for them who have walked in riotousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and unlawful worshipping of idols.

Let me do some underlining:

for them who have walked in riotousness, lustS, excess of wine, revellingS, banquetingS, and unlawful worshipping of idols.

Going to one occasional banquet or drinking party once in a while which there was a reason for (Seder or marriage would both be reasons) is something other than walking in ... banquetS

10:40 Restriction against excess is not a command to partake in moderation, but clearly a permission thereof.

10:47 Your comparison to ecclesiastes 7:18 isn't one. King Solomon is not giving commands for a righteous life, but good tips on being streetsmart.

[16] These things also I saw in the days of my vanity: A just man perisheth in his justice, and a wicked man liveth a long time in his wickedness. [17] Be not over just: and be not more wise than is necessary, lest thou become stupid. [18] Be not overmuch wicked: and be not foolish, lest thou die before thy time.

Here is the Challoner comment:

[17] "Over just": Viz., By an excessive rigour in censuring the ways of God in bearing with the wicked.

[18] "Be not overmuch wicked": That is, lest by the greatness of your sin you leave no room for mercy.

In other words, King Solomon is counting on some hearing this to sooner or later be wicked and telling them to take care not to overdo it. It's easier to be forgiven a rape of (won't mention his name now, he's forgiven by the victim) proportions than to be forgiven a rape and murder after tens of other rapes and murders of Ted Bundy proportions.

So, unlike I Tim 3:8 and Titus 2:3, which involve commands, about what is done when things are in order, King Solomon was dealing with advice for people with lives in disorder.

10:51 I Peter 4:4 ... what is the word you translate as "excess"?
Anachusis means expansion, it would seem ... and asotia prodigality.

And you do not even have a direct ban on "tes asotias anachusin " you are just told that pagans blame you for not doing the SAME expansion of prodigality.

In I Tim 3:8 you have "much" as qualifying the object to be avoided - that is, a little of it is not to be avoided. Same in Titus 2:3.

10:59 In I Peter 4:3 ἀθεμίτοις presumably qualifies εἰδωλολατρίαις as an epithet, there being no other kind (unless St. Peter would have called eiconodulia "licit idolatry" but he would not have called it that). In I Tim 3:8 and Titus 2:3 "pollo" is a significant attribute for the context, since the contrasting "οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ" is pretty obviously a possible thing.

The one occasion where these things mention "polu" is ecclesiastes 7:17 (which it is in the LXX) and this is because King Solomon isn't giving instructions for a good life, but advice for not making it horrible when one is sinning.

11:12 Restrictions against "polu" or "pollo" can be taken as some kind of authority for moderation.

In NT Tim / Tit epistles, authority for good life, and in Ecc authorities not to a bad life but about how to manage it.

11:34 Deut 14:26-27 has ū·ḇaš·šê·ḵār - šê·ḵār means a kind of beer that very certainly was fermented drink.

It's made from breads cast on waters, a bit like kwas, but with barley breads it is closer to regular beer than kwas is, as made from rye bread.

I am obviously making some kwas for Christmas.

11:53 While cidre is indeed from šê·ḵār, it is always alcoholic. Sweet cidre like 2 %, while brut is more like 5.5 %.

The ancient šê·ḵār was a mixture of barley bread and apples or even dates thrown on the waters, while the modern beer and cider have tended to go separate ways (unlike with kwas, which combines the two).

12:12 That šê·ḵār is related to a word we get sugar from doesn't mean it means sugar.

Beers and ciders typically are sweet, but certainly not non-alcoholic (OK, 0% beer exists now, but that's a tour de force of modern technology).

12:30 While wine is for some time must, šê·ḵār before fermentation is not a drink, but a mess of bread and water.

It may indeed have much more sugar than alcohol, but bread is not emitting sugar without also doing so with alcohol ...

12:45 Cider and hard cider are both alcoholic. Cider is 2 % (cidre doux), hard cider is at least as alcoholic as cidre brut, i e 5.5 %.

Cider differs very sensibly from apple juice by the bubbles, and the same fermentation that gives carbon dioxide also gives alcohol.

The anaerobic fermentation of glucose (C6H12O6) to form ethanol (C2H5OH) and carbon dioxide is written as:
C6H12O6 (aq) ————> 2C2H5OH (aq) + 2CO2(g) + 2ATP

12:56, nope šê·ḵār (like cider) is not unfermented fruit juice, it is fermented bread beer with fruit additions (with cider and beer each taking half of the original recipe, and chlebowy kwas doing it very near it, but with rye bread instead of barley bread).

13:29 There is a real difference between responsible thinking people in general and kings.

The latter are not just "responsible" but they have an enormous responsibility - and I don't think the previous verse forbids a king alcohol before going to bed, it is about important decision making while under clear influence. Yes, it actually happened in places. Herodotus says Persians considered each thing both drunk and sober.

13:38 Oh dear, you are using the TALMUD ... yes, you have already shown your third leopard head affinity with the second leopard head Islam, and now you display it with the first leopard head, Talmudism - the religion that rejected Our Lord!

14:14 There is more than one stomach problem I could think of, and no, I don't think it's about bad water.

Ephesus has good well water.

If we deal with laxative effect of alcohol, obviously one could think of solid sweet stuffs that are also laxatives - like dried dates.

But if we deal with diuretic effect, this one has a fairly ideal effect depending on dose that is not equalled by sweet stuff - which on the contrary would tend to make the person need to go to pee more times per night.

15:31 Your claim about total abstinence is contrary to the fairly obvious implication of the generic word "oino" - the grap-juice paste had a more specific term which he would have used if that was what he meant. The context "don't drink just water" obviously means "don't push your sobriety to excess" (as total abstinence from wine would be doing).

16:22 Your objection is a misreading.

It is also condemned by the usage of the Catholic Church.

Here is a man who is missing some nuances and who is not in the true Church, but who gets this one right:

What does the Bible say about alcohol? | UNLEARN the lies
UNLEARN the lies | 11 July 2018

No comments: