Tuesday, October 31, 2023

Continued Debate with "Germanic Syntax"

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Three Questions on PIE and Yamnaya (with one debate continued under Continued Debate with "Germanic Syntax") · Creation vs. Evolution: Is There a Correct Use of Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age? · Early human remains found to carry R1b · Would Proto-Indo-European Diverge Into Hittite, Mycenaean Greek, Indo-Aryan in The Biblical Time-Frame? · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Can a PIE Spread with Anatolian Farmers be Defended?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
“Just because Continental Germanics are not North Germanic, doesn't mean they don't share common CULTURAL or GENETIC origins.”

Just because they share Genetic origins and therefore certainly SOME Cultural ones, doesn’t mean they share ALL Cultural ones.

If Snorre recorded Odin (and then his stepson Frey) was an immigrant starting the Yngling dynasty, it could be Norwegian patriotism, since Ynglings were the Norwegian dynasty by his time. But since Saxo’s patriotism was Danish, why would he confirm it, unless it was an actual half recalled memory by way of oral history? He would have been the external or FOREIGN cultural influence.

And while he certainly had some influence on non-Norse Germanic peoples, there is no guarantee for how much or if it was even the same.

“They FACTUALLY have the same Genetic and linguistics origins, but to say they had the same religious beliefs?”

We know for a fact that the religion described by Tacitus differs from that described by Snorre and Saxo.

“No way they had the same Religious beliefs as their forefathers. Not possible.”

No, not possible, since the Odin worship and the Nerthus worship clearly differ in descendants and ancestors. We know for a well documented fact that religious beliefs changed.

I debated the historic Odin with a friend, and he pointed out one difficulty in having a physical Odin appear in today’s Sweden. In Uppsala (or anywhere) no archaeological traces bound to Odin worship have been found before the 4th C. He mentioned that some have proposed Odin was a deified Attila the Hun.

I take some comfort in Tacitus’ remark that Suabians worshipped Mercury (the Roman god or the Roman equivalent of Odin cannot be definitely known), this could mean the Yngling dynasty started among Suabians and then relocated to their relatives, Swedes in the 4th C.

But I find it extremely clear Odin was an immigrant, and changed the religious landscape. If he was himself from the Near East, the time when he lived means he could have built his own views on old Babylonian (Sumerian or Akkadian) as well as Egyptian texts. If he was from Gaul, like a Druid who played the role of Nodens as his tribe’s Teutatis (national deity), Gaulish Druidism could have had Ancient Near East influences from Canaaneans / Carthaginians.

“So, if the Iron Age Proto Germanic Jastorf had the Elder Futhark (they did)”

Reference please?

// The runes were in use among the Germanic peoples from the 1st or 2nd century AD. //

Runes - Wikipedia

// The Jastorf culture was an Iron Age material culture in what is now northern Germany and the southern Scandinavian Peninsula,[1] spanning the 6th to 1st centuries BC, forming the southern part of the Pre-Roman Iron Age. The culture evolved out of the Nordic Bronze Age. //

Jastorf culture - Wikipedia

“thus they had to have a base of the Germanic pantheon or culture”

Not if runes are an import.

// Specifically, the Rhaetic alphabet of Bolzano is often advanced as a candidate for the origin of the runes, with only five Elder Futhark runes (ᛖ e, ᛇ ï, ᛃ j, ᛜ ŋ, ᛈ p) having no counterpart in the Bolzano alphabet //

(wiki on Runes again).

St. Raphael
The Elder Futhark is associated with Proto Germanic and comes before all the shifts and diffusion, the Jastorf Culture are the archaeological culture associated with Proto Germanic cultures and Language along with the Wielbark and Przeworsk (Eastern Proto Germanics) cultures, Oksywie too.

“And in the case of the Latin thesis at the time of intensive Germano-Roman contact, so not prior to the 1st century BC and probably only in the course of the first and early second centuries AD. Roughly, this results in a time frame of approximately 700 years, i.e. during the pre-Roman and Roman Iron Age in Northern Europe”


This is the time frame in which the Jastorf Culture spread into Continental Europe, and begun to diffuse. Thus, I would assume these would be the first Germanic people or their descendants to make use of the Elder Futhark via their contact with the Latins or Etruscans. This all ofc depends on which theory you go with, but all of which fall in the same time frame as the Proto Germanic Jastorf (Early Iron Age, Pre Roman Iron Age) culture. Thus, I associate Runes with them or their descendants. You put a lot of stock in Wōden, as if he is the end all be all.

It's already well known they Odin was most likely elevated to his position by later Germanic people. Ingvi, Yngvi and namesake with his etymology are far older and far more numerous. Not to mention to dozens of other “father” or “mother” deities to other Germanic people, such as Saxnōt being the progenitor of the Saxons, according to them. Odin is hardly present in Proto Germanic, I KNOW THIS. You're the only one pushing this Odin bullsht.

I'm speaking on GERMANIC mythology which is VERY broad, and NOT a monolith (Norse Mythology) and it is very nuanced.

You seem to have a mass misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

Germanic people just as they have diffused languages, had the same with their Ancient religions and WE ALL KNOW THIS. Dozens of Gods and Goddesses and many of which unique to a certain tribe or area or trope. I KNOW THIS. You seem to lack understanding on the scope of the Germanic people and their beliefs.

Asatru and modern Germanic paganism are almost entirely based around the Norse pantheon, because that is what we have the most WRITTEN information about. It's certainly not the leading nor original. Yet another sub branch of Germanic animism and beliefs. Just as their languages are seperate, many of their old ways were too. Not a single person is denying that.

It doesn't change the fact, they still share common genetic origins, thus they DO have claim to their bloodline and ancestors. Sigrið the Dane and Adelheid the Saxon share the same 10th GGF. What is your point?

You can't bullsht your way around the Paternal DNA of Scandinavia and NW Europe. So, good luck. They all converge.

At this point, I dont even know what your end game is. You seem to Conflate Germanic Mythology with ONLY Odin and the very defined Norse Gods. Lmfao, yep; that is why it's North Germanic Mythology, and that's why we have DOZENS of Gods you don't find in their pantheon either and vice versa, as well as sharing many Gods in our pantheons.

It's like a Islam and Christianity argument, you both stem from the same bullsht levantine fairytales. Only seperated by nuances and a few hundred years or thousand years of migrations and evolving minds.

Seaxnēat is just as Germanic as Óðinn is.

Ēostre is just as Germanic as Freyja is.

They are not 1:1 counterparts you clown. Some are shared, some entirely unrelated. This is the nature of things and exactly how I expect it to be.

You got VERY hung up on the Norse Pantheon, rather than Germanic as a whole.

Lol, zero credibility and obviously a lack of literacy.

Again to make it clear;

Seaxnēat is just as Germanic as Óðinn is.

Ēostre is just as Germanic as Freyja is.

Irminsul is just as Germanic as Yggdrasil is.

Germanic people worshipped those two as well, so “it's not Germanic but Norse” is pure bullsht. Seaxnēat is Continental Germanic, not North Germanic. Still Germanic… Crazy how that works, huh? So what's your point? That Odin isn't Germanic? Don't care, takes NOTHING away from me. It's all speculation and heavily nuanced and loaded anyhow. Has zero bearing in reality.

Just like your Levatine God, it's all made up fairytales. Zero bearing on reality, we know that Germanic people share their genetic and linguistic origins. That is a FACT, Mythological and fairytales beings don't change that. So, doesn't matter where Odin came from. Still a fairytale. And Germanic people (North and Continental) factually Share genetic and linguistic origins.

Nothing you speculate or claim will change that, so give it a rest.

Norse Mythology isn't the only pantheon or branch, just as North Germanic isn't the only fkin language branch of Germanic people.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
St. Raphael
First of all, you seem eager to strawman me.

“And Germanic people (North and Continental) factually Share genetic and linguistic origins.

“Nothing you speculate or claim will change that, so give it a rest.”

I never denied it.

Second, you seem eager to change the subject. A few weeks ago, our debate was about Germanic MYTHOLOGY being Indo-European.

Now you are about Germanic SPIRITUALITY being animism.

Animism is sufficiently obvious an approach to reality and not totally in conflict with Christianity (except by adoring lesser spirits instead of considering them as servant of or rebels against the one to be adored, which is incidental to the philosophic view point, and except by trying to manipulate the spirits oneself instead of leaving them to God’s command) to be totally irrelevant for whether Germanic origins are Indo-European or not.

In the other Germanic peoples, you have given pantheons, and those parallel to Germanic, not Indo-European outside Germanic, and you have given animism, as just mentioned, but you have not given myths.

Third, you seem to actually agree with me that Germanic pantheons and cults are different, so that it is very possible that one or more of the Germanic religions underwent change prior to being exchanged for Catholic Christianity.

Fourth, you seem to agree with me that Odin came to the foreground pretty late. Which is exactly what I would expect if he was an immigrant.

Fifth, you have not shown the details I give between Norse Mythology and ANE mythologies are not there, and also not that that they are parallelled in other Germanic religions. You have not shown how Saxons had a bad or misguided brother killing a good and noble one, like Norse have in common with Egyptians. You have not shown that Anglo-Saxons believed the world had been created from the carcass of a monster, like Norse and Babylonians did. You have not shown that Franks or Goths had Germanic pantheons at all, let alone that they considered pre-Flood people to be giants, like Norse mythology believers have in common with with some exegetes of the Genesis 6 account.

Sixth, now to Runes.

The link you gave is no documentation that most of the Jastorf period coincides with runes already being known. As I place Odin in the 1st C BC, this is the last century of the Jastorf culture.

The link offered no solid evidence that Jastorf culture developed runes on its own, or had it prior to 1st C BC, without external aid, it only involved an enumeration of possible external aids and a kind of evaluation favouring the Phoenician thesis of Theo Venemann.*

The arguments for the Phoenician theses do not annul the facts that favour the Bolzano alphabet. How can one combine both? Well, an immigrant from the ANE would be familiar with the Phoenician or Hebrew alphabet. He could have taken the Bolzano alphabet as basis, but still had the Hebrew one to fall back on.

Seventh, in this discussion Theo Venemann* agrees with me on a strong Semitic influence.

// According to Vennemann, there is a time frame of 525 BC to 201 BC for the Phoenician thesis. The most likely time frame for the transfer of the Punic alphabet to the north is between the Carthaginian admiral Himilco’s expedition, which was aimed at exploring and securing new trade routes and trading places in the North Sea area, and the end of the Second Punic War, through which Carthage lost its European colonies (Cf. ibid., P. 374). Vennemann specifies the place of origin, like the representatives of the Latin thesis, because of the high density of finds and the oldest runic finds, as Denmark and the North Sea region. He embeds the theory of the formation of runes in his theory of a strong Semitic influence on early Germanic society and even speaks of “colonization”. //

* Note
the page cited him as Venemann, but wiki says Vennemann.


Was Odin based on an ancient Nordic king who existed at some point in history (i.e., not purely mythological)?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University
Mar 11 2023
  • Arguably yes.
  • Arguably that Nordic (specifically Swedish) king was an immigrant.
  • Alternative theory, he was actually a Swabian king, but the dynasty he founded transferred and relocated its memories to Sweden.

Generally, “mythological” should not mean “non-factual”

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