Debate with Paul Myers

Debate with Paul Myers · Paulogia also doesn't get what is reasonable evidence for 1st C events · Holy Koolaid attacked Bible History with HolyKoolaid Tries to Back Up his Attack Against Exodus · Paulogia took on the Tower

Would the Bible be more believable if it had specific dates of every event that happened?
https://www.quora.com/Would-the-Bible-be-more-believable-if-it-had-specific-dates-of-every-event-that-happened/answer/Paul-Myers-60

Paul Myers

IFR pilot, former animator, studying Japanese, anime fan

Answered Nov 24

No. The bible would be more believable if it included sources, testable experiments and repeatable tests that can be verified by the intelligent community at large rather than second-hand accounts of a few peasants who claimed they saw a guy do something fascinating.

And using actual dates would allow us to pit real geology, paleontology, and astronomy against the claims of the bible and better disprove their claims. Using actual dates would put an end to Christianity because then we would have proof that it was all made up.

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue

“The bible would be more believable if it included sources, testable experiments and repeatable tests that can be verified by the intelligent community at large”

OK, so Livy lacking these for Second Punic War makes Hannibal’s march over the Alps unbelievable?

Paul Myers

Original Author

Tue

How does Hannibal’s march have anything to do with the fables, fairy tales, and unprovable scientific claims of the bible? You lost me there.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wed

I am applying your criteria.

Livy included no sources for Second Punic War. He did not claim to have conducted experiments on guiding elephants over Alps, and he had no repeatable tests for piercing rock with acid.

Let alone any that can be verified by the [present] community at large.

Ergo, on your criteria against the Bible, we should also consider Second Punic War in Livy as “fables, fairy tales, and unprovable scientific claims”.

Paul Myers

Original Author

Wed

Well I tried to look it up. It actually tells me the name Hannibal does not appear in the bible. Therefore, my statement remains valid.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fri

Your reply presupposes you make special rules that apply only to the Bible.

My question is, how does Hannibal fare if you apply the same criteria to Livy as to Biblical authors?

Same, not special.

Paul Myers

Original Author

13h ago

We don’t make special rules for the bible, and even history is dependent on which witness accounts you go by. Obviously JFK was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald, but there has been a lot of speculation since then whether that is true or not, and why he was shot.

So of course history can be biased as well. But for Hannibal, I’m sure there were scattered remains from his elephant cavalry that could confirm where his army has marched. This is possible because Hannibal was a real person. Unfortunately for the bible, god and Jesus have no such evidence of their existence..

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1h ago

“ there were scattered remains from his elephant cavalry that could confirm where his army has marched.”

None found.

We have Livy, we don’t have his sources, we don’t have archaeological evidence.

In other words, we have as much evidence for Hannibal as for Biblical characters in the flesh.

Updates

Since there are more than one, a "Just now" may be followed by a "21 h. ago".

Paul Myers

Original Author

10h ago

Of course they found elephant dung.

Sci News : Scientists Find Hannibal’s Route through Alps
Apr 7, 2016 by Enrico de Lazaro
http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/hannibals-route-alps-03763.html

But yeah, that seems to be all they found, though it doesn’t sound like they looked at the basin where some may have lost their footing and fallen down the basin. Plus, excavating is illegal for the purposes of preserving the site, just in case there are actual finds like swords, armor, human remains and such.

You are probably thinking, “poop is your only proof?”. It’s proof enough that non- indigenous elephants traversed there, and is still far more proof than anything written in the bible.

That being said, I do still hold out skepticism on some of the claims from history as well. We all know Columbus never sailed to the North American continent, the landing of Plymouth rock was bloodier than described, and so forth.

So I agree in part with your claim that we shouldn't take much of what is written in history books at face value because of ethnic, religious or cultural opinion influencing the records.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

It was not even dated, that poop. (Though other poop was, and it had the correct bacterial signature from that time).

Plus, obviously, historians were (justifiedly) not waiting till the poop was found to be sure of Hannibal.

We have much more than that for Christ, like Shroud of Turin and like Holy Cross.

“your claim that we shouldn't take much of what is written in history books at face value because of ethnic, religious or cultural opinion influencing the records”

I never said that.

I do say we depend on cultural opinion for most of our knowledge of the past. Including religious such.

Paul Myers

Original Author

21h ago

And therein lies the bias: cultural opinion. Germany lost world war 2, so very little is mentioned about Hitler and his rise to power over there. Over here, many of the Americans today never even heard of the atrocities of Nanjing because it never concerned us. So yes, history can be biased, and often can be wrong or even omit major facts from its records.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Omitting facts is not the same thing as making facts up.

And “very little is mentioned about Hitler and his rise to power over there” is not true about school systems everywhere.

Do you pretend we should doubt that Hitler came to power in 1933 or that he was at least reported dead by suicide in the bunker 1945?

With World War II, we certainly have lots more records around now, than we have for things that happened 2000 years ago … but this is not a valid reason to make it into a myth if 2000 years from now all that survives of World War II records is Patrick Buchanan’s Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War.

Note it is from 2008, so 63 years posterior to 1945.

Paul Myers

Original Author

16h ago

Of course not. We need to learn about history so that we don’t make the same mistakes. But we are doomed to repeat them if many of the entries are glorified or misrepresented or outright omitted.

But when it comes to the bible, everything was outright fabricated and obviously misrepresented with their lack of knowledge or scientific understanding. So of course it still stands to reason that no one should take any serious lessons from the bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

“everything was outright fabricated”

Your problem is, your argument would make Livy’s account of Hannibal a likely fabrication, at least before recent finds of elephant dung.

“and obviously misrepresented”

How do you misrepresent a fabricated fact?

“with their lack of knowledge”

How can anyone be ignorant of the events happening then and there?

“or scientific understanding”

Since when is scientific understanding a prerequisite for accurate grasp and accurate transmission of events?

“Of course not. We need to learn about history …”

Not the point : my point is about credibility with scanty surviving evidence after long lapses of time.

Would in 2000 years, with Pat Buchanan as only author surviving, World War II still remain a credible event?

Do you even realise that cultural opinion is our main clue to what has happened?

“so that we don’t make the same mistakes”

Totally beside the point. The analysis a historian or history teacher gives abut who made what mistake and what one should have done instead definitely more subjective than what happened and good novels could take the place, if it were just a matter of learning lessons about morals and statecraft.

The question is about how and why history is credible knowledge and “because we know science” is not the answer.

Paul Myers

Original Author

22h ago

No, science is always the answer, and the bible is never the answer. That’s kind of the whole point of why you cannot trust what is written in the bible. So now our debate has gone full circle.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

The debate may have gone so, but I haven’t proven in a circle, nor explained in a circle.

And once again you have made an argument which cannot be consistently applied without debunking much of what no historian would doubt.

Replace Bible, which is a kind of cultural opinion, with the more general term “science is always the answer, and cultural opinion is never the answer” - and all history falls apart, because it is built on cultural opinion and not on science.

Accepting Hannibal going over the Alps with Elephants is ultimately based on considering with the normal and traditional cultural opinion, that Livy was writing history and not the kind of fictional history that is staple of Silmarillion or Appendices to Lord of the Rings.

Not accepting Aragorn as having ruled over Gondor and reunited Arnor is ultimately based on the cultural opinion that Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings several thousand years after the events were set and did so for fun and edification and emotion, but definitely not for the accurate recounting of true facts. And not directly based on any older accounts.

You might add your world view doesn’t allow you to accept a magic ring or a fallen angelic being who is incarnate and looses his last trace of flesh when the ring is destroyed, but for one thing, that need not be taken as all that necessary for the bulk of the story and for another, some do not share your world view. It is not accepted as universal key to what cannot be history - except half and half by modern historians who might change their methodology for the better if given a chance to survive.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

To summarise previous : “science is the answer” may be your motivation for not trusting the Bible, but it is definitely not the motivation for trusting any non-Biblical history - including such as science cannot do without.

Paul Myers

Original Author

1h ago

That’s what you said earlier: with the absence of actual evidence, we need to treat all history as if it may be as fictional as what the bible says.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Correction on what I actually said:

“with the absence of actual evidence”

With the actual evidence being sources centuries later.

“we need to treat all history as if it may be as fictional as what the bible says.”

We need to treat the Bible as a source on par with accepted historic sources, until disproven by better sources.

Paul Myers

Original Author

Thu

Okay, I can agree with that statement. Especially if our only evidence is piles of elephant dung. Your point is well taken.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

No, our only evidence is NOT elephant dung. It is only our only evidence of YOUR “canonic” types.

Our main evidence is cultural opinion traceable closer back to events than any contrary (if such exists).

Precisely as my view Tolkien is not history is based on the cultural opinion as far as I know going back to while LotR was written. And my view Gospels are history is based on Papias being older than Voltaire.

II

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

“And using actual dates would allow us to pit real geology, paleontology, and astronomy against the claims of the bible and better disprove their claims. Using actual dates would put an end to Christianity because then we would have proof that it was all made up.”

This is a new thread, would you mind giving examples?

Feel free to use the dates I gave in my answer.

Own answer

Would the Bible be more believable if it had specific dates of every event that happened?
https://www.quora.com/Would-the-Bible-be-more-believable-if-it-had-specific-dates-of-every-event-that-happened/answers/182821114

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Tue

Secondary literature to the Bible has figured out the dates, with some discrepancy between Historia scholastica (which had its dates included in Roman Martyrology) and George Syncellus.

For Historia Scholastica, you get Christ born 5199 after Creation, 2957 after Flood, 2015 after birth of Abraham, 1510 after Exodus, 1032 after anointing of King David (probably should be : 1082 after anointing of King David and 1032 after completion of King Solomon’s Temple).

The Vortex Misreporting on "Pope Francis"

The Vortex — Francis HATES America!
Church Militant | 19.XI.2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYgt3fKDlc

I

1:46 It is correctly quoted about Europe and "Federal structure".

"Anch'io ho pensato più volte a questo problema e sono arrivato alla conclusione che, non soltanto ma anche per questa ragione, l'Europa deve assumere al più presto una struttura federale. Le leggi e i comportamenti politici che ne derivano sono decisi dal governo federale e dal Parlamento federale, non dai singoli Paesi confederati. Lei del resto questo tema l'ha più volte sollevato, perfino quando ha parlato al Parlamento europeo."

Scalfari intervista Francesco: "Il mio grido al G20 sui migranti"
di EUGENIO SCALFARI | 08 luglio 2017
https://www.repubblica.it/vaticano/2017/07/08/news/scalfari_intervista_francesco_il_mio_grido_al_g20_sui_migranti_-170253225/

But I can't find US needing to be governed by UN.

America having a distorted view etc is not just America, and it's strictly about international politics:

Papa Francesco mi ha detto di essere molto preoccupato per il vertice del "G20". "Temo che ci siano alleanze assai pericolose tra potenze che hanno una visione distorta del mondo: America e Russia, Cina e Corea del Nord, Putin e Assad nella guerra di Siria".

So, it's not American citizens, but US as an international power which has, and this is a problem shared with Russia, China, North Korea, and Assad.

II

2:37 I'm sorry, but I think G20 is closer to a New World Order - and he was against it.

Did you ever check the Italian original, or did you only check the newsoutlet you were quoting?

How An Apocalyptic Preacher And QAnon Followers Made A False Pope Francis Quote Go Viral
Craig Silverman | BuzzFeed News Reporter
Posted on February 14, 2019, at 12:54 p.m. ET
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/false-pope-quote-world-government-takeover-qanon

III

4:51 You spoke of US as the leading nation defeating the Nazis.

Well, a few observations.

• 1) Stalin's Soviet Union was also involved, and US and England graciously paid for the help by granting him Eastern Europe at the Yalta conference.
  
  
• 2) Some of the evils of National Socialism came from US and Canada.
  
  I am speaking of Eugenics.
  
  Some cite Mit brennender Sorge as an Encyclical in which Pius XI condemned Nazi Eugenics. But Eugenics is not singled out in that encyclical. Pius XI condemned Eugenics in fact in 1930, a bit more than 2 years before there was a National Socialist régime. What states were already resorting to it?
  
  As far as I known these "pre-Nazis" were British Columbia and Alberta, South Carolina and Alabama. Sweden and Norway with the Lapps, and perhaps Denmark with Inuits was following suit.
  
  
• 3) Germany got rid of Eugenics as soon as 1945 - thank you Patton, pissing in the Rhine was not pretty, but that's at least one problem it solved! - but the above mentioned states other than Germany continued to 1970's.
  
  
• 4) The least one can say of what Jews surviving the camps had suffered was, a kind of prolonged and very humiliating boot camps. Two nations today stand out for boot camps, US and China. As to Russia, I sense it could be the case too, but reporting is opaque on that front.
  
  How many Jews came to camps and died in them is a question which this country (France) forbids a two way discussion of. But they were at least even on highest counts fewer than death victims of abortion, and, sadly, Trump has made no clear move to outlaw it nation wide.
  
  
• 5) Defending one's borders is correct to do ... up to a point. Berlin wall and that sheriff in Arizona who empties water bottles in Sonora desert to make illegal crossings a death trap passes that point.
  
  When it comes to taking children away - which Obama started - this is also a horror, but it is dwarfed by the horror of non-border issues related to CPS. However, in itself it is a horror, and one which should not be inflicted to immigrants for being immigrants. Nor on others for most other reasons now routinely used : a few months ago, I mentioned, if a parent is known to be worshipping Baal, well, CPS might have a case.

Besides, I'd like to have an exact quote about where antipope Bergoglio considered modern Nationalists as equivalent of Nazis.

IV

5:12 "foundation of a one world government"

I googled : pope francis one world government

Two of the links omitted "one", namely two related to "Pope Francis" and to "World Government" Summit at Dubai/

One was a NYT article on a Pope with a One World Government, namely 7 April 1951:

Pope Backs Plan for World Government; Sees It as a Means to Establish Peace
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES. April 7, 1951
https://www.nytimes.com/1951/04/07/archives/pope-backs-plan-for-world-government-sees-it-as-a-means-to.html

When it comes to "trespassing into politics" it can be added that Pius XII had a secret correspondence with Truman, about war against another nation with also mixed Catholic and Protestant population, namely Germany.

The other two top links, which had all five words, were from US based Anticatholic Fundie sects, namely Chick publications:

Battle Cry : THE POPE IS ON A ROLL
Issue Date: January/February 2017 | Chick
https://www.chick.com/battle-cry/article?id=the-pope-is-on-a-roll

And ... ah, wait, this second link in fact uses another source:

POPE FRANCIS DEMANDS A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
PTG Blog | 5/23/2019 11:25:51 AM
https://www.proclaimingthegospel.org/site/blogview2.asp?sec_id=180014816&forum_id=180003854&message_id=180068078&topic_id=180021176

It doesn't refer to the interview in 2017, but to ...

Pope Francis has been successfully executing the Vatican's well-defined strategy to create a one world religion. Now he is using his global influence and power to establish a one world government. During a speech on May 8th before the members of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. Pope Francis demanded that a new "supranational, legal constituted body" enforce climate change policies and other worldwide "threats." He advocated a policy of decreased national sovereignty and increased global unity, claiming that planetary problems are exacerbated by "an excessive demand for sovereignty on the part of States."

Would you mind looking up that speech instead of the Scalfari interview?

As this last link is from May 23 this year, 2019, one may presume they are referring to 8 May 2019.

V

5:55 When it comes to Italian military around the Vatican, one can of course wonder why ...

One reason could be, they are guarding Italy against a threat from the Vatican. Or preventing Italians from seeking refuge in it.

One reason could be, they are guarding the Vatican against a threat from Islamic terrorism.

One reason could be, they are guarding the Vatican against a threat from Anticlerical Italian terrorism.

And one reason could be, they are defending the apparent popes against bothersome people like Susana Maiolo or Rev. Georges de Nantes who came to "Paul VI" deposing (or trying to) before him an accusation against "Paul VI" for heresy and schism.

The walls of the Vatican used to be city walls. And the Church State had no such walls around it, or as it is often called in English, Papal States. When St. Pius V expelled Jews in 1568, he did not require them to climb walls or pass through narrow gates.

VI

7:05 the Vatican has yet to comment on the [Scalfari]* interview about Francis reportedly saying

Ho visto l'intervista : non trovó questo detto del antipapa Bergoglio ...

You really don't have anyone speaking Italian and able to check the original source?

Come on, that's not how news outlets should do things, The Vortex!

* Subtitles had Scialfa instead of Scalfari ... so much for AI!

VII

Update on link in IV

It seems Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences had no event on May 8 2019.

It had one Plenary Session on 1-3 May 2019.

Nation, State, Nation-State
http://www.pass.va/content/scienzesociali/en/events/2019-23/nations.html

Résumé:

• 1) It involves no attack on nations as nations;
• 2) It mentions nation states are not the sole possibility for sovereign states, some nations are shared between more than one state and some states involve more than one nation;
• 3) It calls for supranational sovereignties, and mentions European Union, but it does not call for the world as a whole to become one supranational sovereignty.

So far the Concept Note, it is somewhat unlikely that "Pope Francis" added something radically new, and even unlikelier he had an extra session 5 days after the plenary session in order to add this. I'd consider the news story as equally fake on the PTG Blog. It seems that Chick didn't bother to give a reference in politics, and I haven't seen a fake about the ecumenism with Welby, which they do cite.

Quoran Medley

Some of these in answer to already known Siddiquee.

Prayers for the safety of Mike Horn are appreciated from those who liked this!

Q I

Did Vikings practice religious fanaticism?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Vikings-practice-religious-fanaticism/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Thu

Someone claimed that the Viking plunders against Christians targetting especially monasteries were a payback for Charlemagne allowing the cutting down of Irminsul, the holy oak in Saxony (Saxons like Vikings worshipped Odin and Thor, though there were divergences about other gods, I have no idea what Norse god if any Saxnot would correspond to).

If this is correct, all of the Viking age was one big act of religious fanaticism, comparable to Daesh targetting the Occident.

Even if this is not correct, but just a guess (as far as I know it is a guess, but "just" a guess means the guess is wrong too), when Christianity came, Odin worshippers in Norway and Sweden put up a resistance like this example:

// However, Inge did not permit the people to follow the old ways, unlike his father Stenkil. The Swedes reacted strongly and asked Inge to either comply with the old traditions or abdicate. When Inge proclaimed that he would not abandon Christianity, the people pelted him with stones and chased him away.[3] This was the opportunity for Sweyn to assume power, and the account provided by Hervarar saga concerning his inauguration contains a rare description of the ancient Indo-European ritual of horse sacrifice: //

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blot-Sweyn

This would probably explain the Roman Catholic ban on horsemeat, it is in application of Acts 15:20.

Q II

Is the Pope the head of Vatican City and the Holy See?
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Pope-the-head-of-Vatican-City-and-the-Holy-See/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Thu

Yes, of both.

Note, if the true pope were to be someone else than the one residing in the Vatican, the true pope would be the head of the Holy See, per definition, but the Vatican City and the fake pope's fake Holy See would be run by the fake pope residing.

Q III

What words rhyme with ending words in -ed?
https://www.quora.com/What-words-rhyme-with-ending-words-in-ed/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Answered Thu

Other words which both end in -ed and have the same full stressed syllable, perhaps one in between, as the word in -ed you chose.

I'm supposing you meant -ed as unstressed final, like in w-alk-ed and t-alk-ed (rhyming) or m-anag-ed with (if it exists) pl-anag-ed.

If you meant words like Ted, Fred and words that would rhyme with those, that's another issue.

Q IV

What were the chances of a letter reaching its destination in medieval Europe?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-chances-of-a-letter-reaching-its-destination-in-medieval-Europe/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Thu

Depended on whether your courier was waylaid or not.

Read the novel Michael Strogoff by Jules Verne, and you will see what the procedure was like when enemies wanted to intercept ...

Q V

What became of the Huguenots?
https://www.quora.com/What-became-of-the-Huguenots/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Neil Kuchinsky

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Fri

Some converted, some died in resistance or on galleys after trying it, very many fled to Belfast or Berlin.

Jacques Tredoux

Fri

Also, many ended up at the Cape of Good Hope after fleeing to The Netherlands, courtesy of the Dutch East India Company.

Many settled around Cape Town, especially in Stellenbosch, and established the South African wine industry.

They were assimilated into the Afrikaans-speaking population, contributing a number of French loan-words to the language.

Surnames such as Barnard, Lagrange, Malherbe, Du Toit, Retief, Nortier, Malan, Le Roux, Fouché, Fourie, De Villiers, Roux and De La Rey are still prominent in South Africa.

Q VI

How widespread was Latin spoken in the Roman Empire?
https://www.quora.com/How-widespread-was-Latin-spoken-in-the-Roman-Empire/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Mike Austin

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Fri

It was spoken all over the Western half, while Eastern half similarily had Greek, with some enclaves of it in the Western half as well (Marseilles and Rome had many Greek speakers and so had South Italy).

1st C BC and 1st C AD assisted a mass extinction of languages within Roman Empire which were neither Greek nor Latin, arguably their speakers shifted to Latin in for instance Italy or Gaul and to Greek in for instance Asia Minor. Most of the languages heard on Pentecost day were not written and did not survive to its centennial anniversary.

Q VII

What countries do not use the Gregorian calendar?
https://www.quora.com/What-countries-do-not-use-the-Gregorian-calendar/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

I suppose that countries with Islamic calendar use Gregorian as a parallel calendar, but Russia and Serbia use only Julian.

This means, basically same concept, but all years divisible by four, including all centurial years, are leap years and no ten days were retroactively scrapped either. The difference for since second "half" of 1900 up to first "half" of 2100 is thirteen days currently.

Possibly more countries, like Ukraine.

Bob Becksted

15h ago

To my knowlege, Russia and Serbia use the Western European Calendar (Gregorian) as the civil calendar. The Russian and Serbian Orthodox Churches use the Julian calendar, as do all the Eastern Churches.

Very few countries do not use the Gregorian calendar for at least business purposes.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Original Author

32m ago

Are you sure?

OK? You may be right .... that would be since Communism if so?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Original Author

Just now

And, for Serbia since it became part of the Kraljevina, obviously (SHS)

Q VIII

Which Greek tribe was Sparta a part of?
https://www.quora.com/Which-Greek-tribe-was-Sparta-a-part-of/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

(Two other answers were given before mine)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

I am seconding Dorians.

As for the Hebrew tribe of Dan it is a guess where it actually went.

Q IX

What did a farmer do in medieval times?
https://www.quora.com/What-did-a-farmer-do-in-medieval-times/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

In December he slaughtered Makhlouf* and in January he sat by a fire.

There are, actually, pictures of the farm activities, month by month, so one can get a fairly good overview.

They were cited in a book about the French Countryside of the Middle Ages that I was reading the other day. In another library than this one.

I saw one other answer stating this:

"They had to grow food not only for themselves but first, and foremost, for whoever was taxing them (usually the local lord, but sometimes also the local bishop or monastery)."

First of all, a bishop or a monastery's abbot was a lord.

Second, more importantly, since farmers were 95 to 98 % of the ones living back then (according to current estimates), if not 95 to 98 % at least 90 to 96% was for themselves.

It's ridiculous to imagine that a lord could eat much more than twice than each of his farmers, since his farmers actually ate fairly much. He (and burghers) arguably did eat much more meat, though. Not much more bread.

It's totally ahistoric to imagine a lord exporting wheat to a far off city while his farmers were starving. Middle Ages was not 1846 of Ireland, for instance, in the Middle Ages, both farmers and their lord were usually Catholics and in the Middle Ages capitalism was less developed.

* Yes, this is one of the answers to Mr. Siddiquee.

Q X

What is a dome structure?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-dome-structure/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

I would have answered sth along the lines of a half sphere, but Gary Wheeler reminded me, you could also have 5/8 (the top ones) of a sphere, and that would also be a dome.

It's constructed a bit like a vault, except for one detail : in a vault, you need to keep a support until all of the vault is ready, in a dome, each tier of stones supports the one higher up (this also means, you can have domes with a hole in the top).

Q XI

What is the Greek word for belief?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Greek-word-for-belief/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

Pistis, but it first means the virtue of faith, sticking to your engagement of being faithful.

Doxa or dogma when it comes to belief about one point.

Both have other than religious meanings to, like contractual fidelity for the first, as well as reliance on someone else's such, and like opinion for the other.

// You were redirected because the question What are the Greek beliefs? was merged with this question. //

The Greeks had more than one belief system.

Pythagoreans practised a kind of Feng Shui and believed in Reincarnation.

Homeric belief is a bit like Japanese Shintoism.

Platonic belief is a bit closer to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Aristotle modifies it, and if you go strictly with Aristotle you get something like Averroism.

Stoicism is a bit like Buddhism, Hinduism and Enlightenment.

Epicureanism is a bit like Materialistic Atheism and Enlightenment.

THEN came Christianity.

I have omitted exotic cults, like Isis worship or Orphicism (Egyptian and Thracian rather than Greek).

Q XII

What happened to Paris of Troy?
https://www.quora.com/What-happened-to-Paris-of-Troy/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

I would have looked it up, but Bottoni answered.

English uses more Latin like forms for two key words, namely Scaean Gates and Philoctetes, nymph and Heno.

Q XIII

What did Marcus Aurelius believe in?
https://www.quora.com/What-did-Marcus-Aurelius-believe-in/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

Ignore the answer by Eugene Kumarapperumena, please!

He was a Stoic and believed all is one. "God" and universe is one and doing the right thing brings you closer to the "God" you are.

This did not stop him from persecuting Christians, though.

Q XIV

Why do the numbers for years go down when dated B.C and then A.D. the numbers for years go up?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-numbers-for-years-go-down-when-dated-B-C-and-then-A-D-the-numbers-for-years-go-up/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Donna Rayne

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 22h ago

BC dates were invented for reference after AD dates.

People back in BC times had other and very various dating systems.

Q XV

What is the use of modern technology?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-use-of-modern-technology/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 19h ago

That depends on which one.

Transport, labour saving, recorded sound, communication, these serve different purposes, and medicine is another one.

And so are new materials in clothes and equipment.

And services provided centrally (water, electricity, sanitation). This, with transports and labour saving would be the ones I have reservations about, since the two former put people out of business and the latter makes people dependent on big companies.

Q XVI

Why doesn't the Bible mention David's mother?
https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-the-Bible-mention-Davids-mother/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 19h ago

It does:

http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=9&ch=22&l=3#x

Q XVII

Did the Spanish Inquisition ever pardon its victims?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Spanish-Inquisition-ever-pardon-its-victims/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 19h ago

You could be either acquitted or pardoned at a much higher rate than burnt.

St. Ignatius of Loyola was suspect of being an Alumbrado (loosely speaking : a near Catholic Quaker or Catholic Culture Quaker) but was acquitted when he agreed to study theology (he also became a priest and founder of the Jesuit order) before next time giving advice distinguishing venial from mortal sin.

To get pardoned, it was sufficient to repent of, for instance imagined compacts with the Devil, or abusing a holy word and agree to do the penance (a popular one was the road to Santiago - both with Inquisitors imposing the penance and with penitents doing it).

In the case of blasphemy or profanation, many calculated on doing the penance of going to Santiago in order to get a hearing from Inquisitors who were fairer than secular courts, if they had a problem, for instance with a landlord.

Q XVIII

What is a medieval shoemaker?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-medieval-shoemaker/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 17h ago

I think "shoemaker" is a good translation for "cobbler".

Q XIX

How reliably can we know how people in the Middle Ages actually spoke?
https://www.quora.com/How-reliably-can-we-know-how-people-in-the-Middle-Ages-actually-spoke/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 17h ago

We can very reliably know how they wrote.

Medieval manuscripts are a thing.

English is a language where spelling these days does not give too many clues (apart from special lessons!) on how you pronounce the words.

However, this is mainly because English has kept most of its spelling since times when it presumably was as phonetic as Finnish or Serbian orthography these days.

This is the case for French too.

German has reshaped its spelling considerably, probably in tandem with or some delay after sound changes.

So, through reliably knowing how they wrote, we can fairly reliably know how High / Classic and Late Middle Ages spoke.

Back when budding Romance languages were approximately spelled as Latin, we are somewhat less sure, except that St. Gregory of Tours was arguably not using the Classic pronunciation, nor the one introduced in 800 in Tours by Blessed Alcuin. He was using a Latin spelling from centuries earlier to denote words he pronounced centuries later, a bit like English is doing today.

Q XX

Do you know what inspired Tomas de Torquemada to instigate the Spanish Inquisition?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-know-what-inspired-Tomas-de-Torquemada-to-instigate-the-Spanish-Inquisition/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

[not linking yet:] https://www.sfarad.es/quien-fue-arcediano-de-ecija-y-cual-fue-su-papel-contra-los-judios/

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 16h ago

One possibility was, protecting Conversos from lynchmobs deciding without evidence they were dangerous crypto-Jews : his uncle, cardinal Turrecremata (Torquemada in Spanish, but the cardinal is cited in Italian because he was part time stationed in Rome) had stopped on such lynchmob.

As their not too far off origins were also Conversos, they would have had an interest in exonerating Conversos who were not Judaising, but were bona fide Catholics.

After seeing the link:

Obviously the Torquemadas were a far cry from Ferrán Martinez, if he is correctly described (which I cannot guarantee in advance).

[IN fact, I haven't read all of it, I just skimmed on top.]

Q XXI

Before the advent of the Anno Domini dating system, how did Romans assign years to events that took place before the founding of Rome?
https://www.quora.com/Before-the-advent-of-the-Anno-Domini-dating-system-how-did-Romans-assign-years-to-events-that-took-place-before-the-founding-of-Rome/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 1h ago

Before the Founding of Rome, Olympiads and before that you have the Fall of Troy.

Before the Fall of Troy ... well, that would be difficult for Pagans, but the first centuries of official Christianity were not yet using the AD system, so, I think the Roman Martyrology for Christmas day would clear up a few things.

One thing is sure, they were not systematically using minus years for anything.

Here is my translation from the Latin of the earliest version from 1490's:

Year from Creation of the World, when in the beginning God created Heaven and Earth, five thousand, one hundred and ninety-nine, which number of years was completed in the following year of March, in the 20th day of same month, for in that day the world was created. But from the Deluge, the two thousand nine hundred fifty seventh year, which number was completed seventeenth day of following April. From birth of Abraham, the two thousand fifteenth year. From Moses & the Exodus of the people of Israel from Egypt, the thousand five hundred tenth year. From the ruin of Troy, the thousand hundred seventy-ninth year. From the anointing of David unto king, the thousand thirty-second year. In the hundred ninenty third Olimpiad, and in the eight hundredth year from the first Olimpiad. From the founding of the city of Rome, the seven hundredth fifty second year. The sixty-third week, accorting to the prophecy of Daniel, that is the four hundred fortieth year or thereabout. Year of the rule of Octavian, the forty-second. Sixth age of the world, gates closed, all world composed in peace, Christ Jesus eternal God, and Son of the eternal Father, wanting by his most tender advent consecrate the world, conceived by the Holy Ghost and nine months gone through after conception (here it is said in high voice) is born in Bethlehem of Judah from the Virgin Mary, made man; (here higher voice and in passion tone:) Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.

Here is where I discuss where it comes from (and also give the Latin official original):

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Background to Christmas Martyrology
http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/02/background-to-christmas-martyrology.html

Does my answer show at all? Click the link to see if it is visible on quora?

Q

Did the Catholic Church have a police force in the medieval period?
I mean the link here:
https://www.quora.com/unanswered/Did-the-Catholic-Church-have-a-police-force-in-the-medieval-period

Answer requested by

Richard Strachan

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

No, the Inquisition was a judge force.

It may now and then have improvised some kind of secret police, but the first instance I am aware of is in connexion with Galileo, after the Medieval period.

Usually, what should show is a link ending with my user profile, HansGeorgLundahl1, and it should not include the word "unanswered" after I had answered it.

Checked after logging out from quora : no, it doesn't.

Not even as a collapsed answer.

Are things changing? I log in, and this happens with next question? I'll check again after logging out from quora.

Q link A

to all answers, mine is visible among others:

What did they call the police in medieval times?
https://www.quora.com/What-did-they-call-the-police-in-medieval-times

Q link B

to my answer, it's invisible and so is even the question:

What did they call the police in medieval times?
https://www.quora.com/What-did-they-call-the-police-in-medieval-times/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

Burghers.

People living in the cities were doing their own policing.

Seems the first answer is still missing, but the second is visible from both, when I am logged out from quora.

Internet admins ....

Now, a few hours later, first question has another answer, which is erroneous in part.

When I am not logged in, there is one answer, by James Hough, and when I log in, there are two, mine as well.

In other words, my answers are blocked from the view of others by default.

Answer requested by

Richard Strachan

James Hough

I work in my parish as a sacristan, adult teacher for RCIA, Catechism, prayer

Answered 9m ago

Did the Catholic Church have a police force in the medieval period?

The Catholic Church has pretty much been a world wide organization since the Apostles traveled to the Far East and all through Europe and Africa. There is no single “the Catholic Church.

BUT, if you are talking about the Diocese of Rome, the Pope’s own diocese, he owned the entire of central Italy from the fifth century through the late 19th century, these were known as the Papal States, and of course, they had their own police force.

The Vatican itself, has had its private police force since 1506, which was after the Medieval period. They still have them, the Swiss Guard.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3m ago

Why would the Papal states have had any police force prior to 1506 or even then?

Swiss guards were palace security guards, not urban police.

Update

James Hough

Original Author

Thu

Hi Hans-Georg,

The Papal states were an entire country! You can’t run a country without a police force of some kind.

Pax,

James

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

"You can’t run a country without a police force of some kind."

False.

Ancient Rome as well as Medieval Europe had no police forces.

Seems to have been fixed.

Thank God!

Answers to Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee on Quora

First I am posting his questions withut answers, while checking a thing. These are (except my changed page lay out and skipping intervening notifications) how the questions looked in the quora notifcations I had.

Check done. When I am not logged in, the filter does not activate my being logged in. Now, I'll log on and start answering, and this post will be updated.

Q N° I

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · 23h

How much do architectural historians make?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

How much do architectural historians make?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-architectural-historians-make/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

That would depend on what capacity they are being so in.

Writers? Would depend on how popular their book is, which might depend on what publisher printed it …

Professors or other at a university? Would depend on what university and what position.

Q N° II

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Sat

How old was Antoninus Pius when he became an emperor?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Skipping myself

and believing the following:

Q

How old was Antoninus Pius when he became an emperor?
https://www.quora.com/How-old-was-Antoninus-Pius-when-he-became-an-emperor

Timothy Roberts

former Retired High School/college Teacher

Answered Sat

52

Q N° III

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Sat

Who first spoke English?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

Who first spoke English?
https://www.quora.com/Who-first-spoke-English/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Answered just now

Whether you mean Anglo-Saxon or English since Chaucer, the answer would be some generation previous to either St. Cuthbert (first Anglo-Saxon poet, wrote Verse Genesis) or Chaucer, and the speech becoming a language it had not been previously would be too gradual to notice in the speech itself.

It’s just that after both came someone actually trying to write it.

Q N° IV

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Fri

What was the name of the wolf that raised Romulus and Remus?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What was the name of the wolf that raised Romulus and Remus?
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-name-of-the-wolf-that-raised-Romulus-and-Remus/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

It’s not a fairy tale, but history, about feral children.

If only one had been raised by a wolf, he would probably not have become functional socially, when coming to human society, that they had some social functionality was because they were two human children.

Even so it destroyed sufficiently of it to make them end up provoking and killing each other. (Or, one provoked and the other killed him).

In real life, as opposed to Kipling’s Djungle Book, she wolves don’t have names.

Q N° V

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Thu

Is the cultivar name usually written in Latin or English?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Skipping

and do not know which one of the answers given by others to promote.

I didn't even know what "cultivar names" are.

Q N° VI

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 11

How are decades counted?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

How are decades counted?
https://www.quora.com/How-are-decades-counted/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

Decades and centuries are counted in two different ways.

The one closest to how they do it in Swedish is this:

1900’s, 2000’s for previous and this Century;
2000’s and 2010’s for previous and this Decade.

It’s weakness is, a phrase like 2000’s can refer to both a century and its first decade.

They count like this : 1900 - 1999, 2000 - 2099 for centuries, 2000 - 2009, 2010 - 2019.

The other version is like this:

20th C, 21st C for previous and this Century
1st decade of 21st C, 2nd decade of 21st C for previous and this Decade

They count like this : 1901 - 2000, 2001 - 2100 for centuries, 2001 - 2010, 2011 - 2020 for decades.

Or did you mean Rosary decades?

Q N° VII

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 11

What did the Romans use domes for?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What did the Romans use domes for?
https://www.quora.com/What-did-the-Romans-use-domes-for/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

A lot of different things, one of them being temples.

They were also used in palaces, perhaps even in some purely practical buildings.

Q N° VIII

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 11

What does the crown of thorns represent?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Question merged

You were redirected because the question What does the crown of thorns represent? was merged with this question.

Q

What was the crown of thorns made of?
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-crown-of-thorns-made-of/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 1m ago

To general question : it was made from thorns.

To question as asked : it is primarily a historic relic, over and above what it may represent to someone subjectively.

As it is a relic of the passion of Christ, it represents Christ and His sufferings for our salvation.

You may guess

that I don't approve of the question being so merged, that is why I answered the first one very briefly.

Q N° IX

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 10

What are three Roman cultural achievements?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What are three Roman cultural achievements?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-three-Roman-cultural-achievements/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

I’ll add three other ones (to previous answer):

building excellent roads

converting its people to Christianity

converting a Pagan imperial power to Christianity

Q N° X

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 9

What purposes did the earthwork mound of the Adena and Hopewell serve?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What purposes did the earthwork mound of the Adena and Hopewell serve?
https://www.quora.com/What-purposes-did-the-earthwork-mound-of-the-Adena-and-Hopewell-serve/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 1m ago

It seems the site giving its name to Adena culture was used for graves, burials:

Adena Mound - Wikipedia

On the other hand, this is not necessarily the case with all Hopewell sites:

Portsmouth Earthworks - Wikipedia

So, some guess many had other ceremonial uses than just burial.

Here are the wikis on the two cultures, anyway:

Adena culture - Wikipedia

Hopewell tradition - Wikipedia

Q N° XI

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 9

What are the decades of the 20th century?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What are the decades of the 20th century?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-decades-of-the-20th-century/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

See this other answer, there are two ways of counting:

Hans-Georg Lundahl's answer to How are decades counted?

Q N° XII

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 9

What is the Mississippian period known for?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What is the Mississippian period known for?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Mississippian-period-known-for/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

The so called Mississippian “period” is known for certain types of fossils.

In North America, where the interval consists primarily of marine limestones, it is treated as a geologic period between the Devonian and the Pennsylvanian.

Mississippian (geology) - Wikipedia

I consider the marine limestone as from the Flood.

I also consider this is just one of the deposits of the Flood.

And since the question was posed by a probable Muslim, I consider the one surviving with his family is better represented by Noah in Genesis than by Nooh in the Quran.

Q N° XIII

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee

Question for You · Nov 8

What are the three Greek words for love in the Bible?

Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee is looking for an answer.

Q

What are the three Greek words for love in the Bible?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-three-Greek-words-for-love-in-the-Bible/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

There are four Greek words, I am not aware one of them was missing.

It is possible erân is always omitted, I found it neither in St. Paul’s description of shameful desires, nor in the book of Samuel about King David’s adultery.

The other Greek words are stergein, philein, agapân.

Affection, friendship, sacrificial or unselfish love.

Q N° XIV

One more, not from Mohammed Saiful Alam Siddiquee this time, but related to one of his:

Q

Why was the Western Roman Empire so ineffective in dealing against barbarians?
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-the-Western-Roman-Empire-so-ineffective-in-dealing-against-barbarians/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 32m ago

While it was administrationally split up, I don’t agree this is necessarily ineffective, since it involves converting barbarians to Romans as well as to Christians.

Sharing Three Videos, This Morning

I start softly this morning, just sharing two videos I think are good:

Rosary saves 9-11 survivor
17 oct. 2018 | ANFVideosChannel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkc_kpwiWQQ

Alexander Tschugguel Live Tonight - NOTE TIME CHANGE 7:30 PM - NOT 7:00 PM
13 nov. 2019 | LifeSiteNews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOwwrjxy7TA

Here is a third for good measure:

Ben Shapiro Responds to Abortion Claims
19 oct. 2017 | EWTN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezZDegitDgo

On the last one, I'd disagree with Ben Shapiro on new borns not having high brain activity, I read that book featuring Pascal Picq, and the language pediatrician who was interviewed last gave insights like the new born definitely recognises the mother's voice between all other voices, definitely recognises the mother's language, definitely recognises differences between two foreign languages if sufficiently distinct compared to mother language (an English speaking - not yet speaking anything, but going for it - new born would recognise the difference between English and non-English and between French and Japanese, but perhaps not between Russian and Ukrainean - which a Russian or Ukrainean new born would sense the difference between). AND it turns out it has been in hard training for this all the last trimester. This is NOT an excuse for aborting before that, though. Plus, brain activity, we are not supposed to kill people in coma either.

More on Greek Myth and on the Bible

Bible and Greek Myth (Own Answer on Quora) · Bible and Greek Myth (Other Answer, Own Comments) · More on Greek Myth and on the Bible

Q on Greek Myth

Is there any proof that the gods in Greek mythology existed?
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-proof-that-the-gods-in-Greek-mythology-existed/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans Georg Lundahl

none / apprx Masters Latin and Greek, Lund University

Answered Nov 6

For Hercules and Romulus there is some evidence they were men. I mean, Hercules had grandsons who conquered Sparta some time after the Trojan war and Romulus was the first of seven Kings of Rome.

For Nine Muses and Delphic Apollo, there are arguments that they were demons. People consulting the oracle were snared by self fulfilling prophecies and when Nine Muses appeared to Hesiod, they gave him an atrocious theology.

For some others, the evidence depends on the specific character in the story. When Saturnus has Latinus as grandson or greatgrandson, arguably he was a man. When Saturnus castrated Ouranus (Coelus in Latin) or was beating by Jove and expelled to either Italy or Elysian fields, depending on version from having ruled over the universe, he arguably was a fiction.

And all gods were demons while worshipped. Except the true God, the one of the Bible, of Israel and of the Catholic Church.

Q on Bible

Is the Bible a non-historical text?
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Bible-a-non-historical-text/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans Georg Lundahl

none / apprx Masters Latin and Greek, Lund University

Answered Nov 9

The Bible is not one text, but 73 ones (or 66 of these for most Protestant Bibles).

Most of these texts (or the added chapter length of the longest, at least most of the chapter length) are historical in the sense that they purport to tell history and that they have been taken as telling history by the first known references to them.

Other texts are not historical in the sense of instead telling things as they always are independently of time (like letters of St Paul, apart from cleavage between Old and New Testaments, or Proverbs).

If by non-historical you mean fake history, which is one meaning, you’d want to ask how the mistakes or frauds originated and that question would give clues from specific circumstances of each historic text that there weren’t any.

Bible and Greek Myth (Other Answer, Own Comments)

Bible and Greek Myth (Own Answer on Quora) · Bible and Greek Myth (Other Answer, Own Comments) · More on Greek Myth and on the Bible

Same Q:

Why do Biblical literalists cite the Bible as a historical record, but not count Greek mythology as historical record?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Biblical-literalists-cite-the-Bible-as-a-historical-record-but-not-count-Greek-mythology-as-historical-record

Toni Shuma

Christian

Answered Oct 17, 2011

Originally Answered:

How is it possible to cite the Bible as a historical record, but not count Greek mythology as historical record?

I believe that the most historically reliable document from Greek mythology is the Iliad, so I will base my answer on this document. I'm not an historian, so I look forward to additional answers, but here is my attempt at answering your question.

The first factor is historical accuracy: There is an ongoing debate as to how much of the Iliad is historical fact & how much is myth. I was once taking a course on Ancient History when they pointed out that some of the armor and weapons described in the Iliad are historically accurate to the time period of the battle (& would constitute the only written historical record of armor from that time period!) Yet right alongside the accurate information there is wildly inaccurate information such as anachronistic armor and weapons from later time periods. We can understand from this that oral traditions about the Battle of Troy (and other ancient battles) morphed and new heroes and pieces were added.

The Bible is not like this. We don't see wildly inaccurate stories & a hodgepodge of details that don't match with the particular time period where the events are said to take place. I think it is likely the Iliad was based on some historical fact when the oral tradition first started, but unlike the Bible we see clear evidence of the Iliad changing over time as new stories were added.

Are the Gospels Accurate Historical Books?
http://www.seekthetruth.org/gospels.html

The second factor is authenticity: If we know stories were added to the Iliad later, then we know the entire work is not the work of an eyewitness. This makes the Iliad more like a "fairy tale" and less like a record of history. Fairy tales and oral traditions are works of a society, not an individual. They are added to over time and give us great insight into the values and fears of a culture, but they are not useful as records of actual fact. Contrast this to the gospel accounts which contain many eyewitness details & do not contain the historical inaccuracies like I mentioned above.
One example - The Name Test:

New Evidence the Gospels were Based on Eyewitness Accounts
Peter J. Williams
https://www.bethinking.org/is-the-bible-reliable/new-evidence-the-gospels-were-based-on-eyewitness-accounts

The third factor is the manuscript evidence: How accurate is the transmission of the information we have from the events to the present day? The biggest difference I can think of is that 500 years passed between the events described in the Iliad and the first existing copy that we have of the text. Compare that to a less than 100 year span between the first full copy of the New Testament and the events of Jesus's life. Also, we have fewer copies of the Iliad than the New Testament, and the copies that we have of the Iliad are less accurate and less consistent than the New Testament manuscripts. So we can trust the version of the story of Jesus's life that we're getting has had less time to evolve into myth via oral tradition & less possibility of corruption than the Iliad.

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability
by Matt Slick | 12/10/08
http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

There are, of course, other ways to determine the historical accuracy of a document:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

Hans-Georg Lundahl

29m ago

“Yet right alongside the accurate information there is wildly inaccurate information such as anachronistic armor and weapons from later time periods.”

So? Precisely like bad theology (idolatrous such) that does not preclude historicity of events. Note, I am talking about historicity as opposed to fictionality or symbolicity, not exact degree of historic accuracy.

One little extreme in this respect, anachronism, it seems all Mycenaean palaces had been destroyed earlier than the relevant level of Troy.

So, when Telemachus is received in the “palace of Pylos” we can presume it was a tent or a later more modest and less permanent type of building than the archaeological palace of Pylos.

Speaking of which, since Troy had been mighty and basically capital of Luwians, the probable destroyers of Hattusha, it is very possible the war was kind of a retaliation for destruction of Mycenaean palaces - but waiting until they took one extra bad move, like the enlevement of another king’s wife, so as to be sure to have the gods on their side.

Other inaccuracies would involve transfer of things concerning Hittites (and perhaps battle of Kadesh with its clear presence of chariot fights) to war of Troy.

“There are, of course, other ways to determine the historical accuracy of a document”

This answers about relative accuracy, but not about the categorisation of (relevant parts of) “Greek myth” as historic record, in opposition to entertaining fiction.

“If we know stories were added to the Iliad later, then we know the entire work is not the work of an eyewitness. This makes the Iliad more like a "fairy tale" and less like a record of history.”

No, historical witness at second hand is still historical document, while fairy tale is made for entertainment. We have Second Punic war from Livy and from authors depending on him, and he lived as removed from First Punic War nearly as Homer from Trojan War. His distance from Second Punic War is about half or a bit more of Homer’s from Trojan one.

Rumpelstilzkin and Little Red Riding Hood are fairy tales, Richard the Lion-Hearted in Dürnstein is not a fairy tale, it’s a local legend. Local legends are basically historic, though accuracy may vary and some apocryphal such are “fairy tales in disguise”.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

24m ago

“The biggest difference I can think of is that 500 years passed between the events described in the Iliad and the first existing copy that we have of the text.”

No, about 400 years between events and traditionally attributed redaction.

With events and first actual copy we have, all copies of the Iliad are Anno Domini.

So, more like 1200 years to even partial fragmentary copies. But that matches Caesar’s conquest of Gaul and redaction compared to oldest manuscript of Corpus Caesareum, including obviously De Bello Gallico.

Very early manuscripts for Gospels are not the standard ancient history accuracy test, they are very exceptionally good guarantees of accuracy for ancient history.

Bible and Greek Myth (Own Answer on Quora)

Bible and Greek Myth (Own Answer on Quora) · Bible and Greek Myth (Other Answer, Own Comments) · More on Greek Myth and on the Bible

Q

Why do Biblical literalists cite the Bible as a historical record, but not count Greek mythology as historical record?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Biblical-literalists-cite-the-Bible-as-a-historical-record-but-not-count-Greek-mythology-as-historical-record/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Quora Question Details Bot

Aug 8, 2017

We have clear records on Homer and Paul each writing texts that account for tales of miracles. Why is Paul's work considered by some to be a historical records, while Homer's is not?

Is this just a logical fallacy on the part of Biblical Christians, or is there something in the definition they use that separates the two sets of texts?

Same could be asked for many other texts that have clear literary/historical backgrounds, but cite the stories of religions other than Christianity (e.g. the Koran, Book of Dede Korkut, Prose Edda, etc.)

Yesterday

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

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Today

Hans Georg Lundahl

none / apprx Masters Latin and Greek, Lund University

Answered 1 h ago

For the record, I am Biblical literal inerrantist (literalist might also be taken as excluding all meanings apart from the literal, which I do not, I just believe that the literal sense is always inerrant in the original manuscript of the hagiographer, so called autograph and that the correct reading cannot have been totally lost for any verse through copy mistakes).

And I do believe much of “Greek mythology” is historic record, even if seen through a faulty since idolatrous lense and the supernatural and parts of the natural perhaps too attributed to fake gods.

Bible and Mythology are Greek names for two collections, the Bible of texts and the Mythology of stories. They are names given by the adherents themselves.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Original author

1 h ago

“We have clear records on Homer and Paul each writing texts that account for tales of miracles. Why is Paul's work considered by some to be a historical records, while Homer's is not?”

I don’t know of any part in Homer where a miracle need be presumed.

Those where a “miracle” of some kind would be an at least likely explanation may have to do with demonic miracles.

When Ulysses changed appearance from old to man in his strength, I am not sure whether there was a quick dropping of masks covering the face (as Chinese do) or the work of demons.

It is not an indication that the work is not historic.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Original author

1:57 pm

Detail: “and Paul each writing texts that account for tales of miracles.”

The NT texts with miracles are not by St. Paul, even the miracles concerning him are mostly by St. Luke in Acts. Excluding very brief references to the Resurrection which is more fully treated in Gospels, mainly, and some reference to his receiving revelations.

Since attributing Christianity to St. Paul is popular among Muslims, was the one posing the question as specified in comment a Muslim? (Or ex-Muslim, see end of his comment, and I wrote this some hour after seeing the whole comment)

Scientists Suck at History of Science

The excellent physics didactitian "Tibees" is exposing some physics students to a physics exam from 1888 here in this video, and in it you see they prove my point:

Physics students react to 1888 exam
Tibees | 13.XI.2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A1aBe0C1jc

One thing I note immediately is they suck at history of science.

• 1) Before Boltzmann and they didn't believe in atoms ... except they did (even if it wasn't Bohr's model)
• 2) "when was the first camera"

"The essential elements—a silver-plated surface sensitized by iodine vapor, developed by mercury vapor, and "fixed" with hot saturated salt water—were in place in 1837."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography#Invention

Sounds like some decades before 1888, wasn't it? If you read on, Talbot perfected calotype in 1840, also nearly five decades before the exam.

I can't find a useful diagram of a 19th C. camera online right now, but the reason would be, gaslight necessitated a longer exposure than was feasible for people without moving at all.

5:27 "Michael Faraday FRS (/ˈfærədeɪ, -di/; 22 September 1791 – 25 August 1867) was an English scientist who contributed to the study of electromagnetism and electrochemistry."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday

In St. Thomas Aquinas' day, iron was earth influenced by Mars and in the case of magnets, it was influenced by Venus as well.

So this is way after the time when "it's a bunch of metal that has those properties" ... if ever there was such a time.

And, no, Faraday dying in 1867 was not 20th C.

6:14 "they didn't even have one"

Check wiki:

"The Bell System was the system of companies, led by the Bell Telephone Company and later by AT&T, which dominated the telephone services industry in North America from 1877 to 1984"

Yeah, right, 1877 was eleven years before this exam, so that was already a commercial or public service, not just experiments.

A membrane is set before someone's mouth, when he speaks it moves. A magnet is attached to it, affecting induction and therefore strength of electric current, the electric current is transmitted to the other phone where an electromagnet pulls and repels a magnet in another membrane, just like in a loudspeaker, except the receiving end membrane being held to the ear is much smaller than a loudspeaker. As the electric current changes intensity, the membrane vibrates and those vibrations reconstitute the sound to the air and to the ear.

Lifespans of Age of Discovery (Methodology, given on Quora)

Q

How was life during the Age of Discovery?
https://www.quora.com/How-was-life-during-the-Age-of-Discovery/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Dylan Pancracio

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 3h ago

First we check when that was ...

The Age of Discovery, or the Age of Exploration (approximately from the beginning of the 15th century until the middle of the 17th century),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Discovery

1400 - 1650.

EDIT : I seem to have mistaken “how” for “how long” … so following answer is about lifespans. Well, that is one aspect of how life was then. (End of edit.)

Next we check life spans from these times.

Start with births of 1400:

January 13 – Infante John of Portugal, the Constable (d. 1442)
May 19 – John Stourton, 1st Baron Stourton, English baron (d. 1462)
July 26 – Isabel le Despenser, Countess of Worcester, English noble (d. 1439)
December 25 – John Sutton, 1st Baron Dudley, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (d. 1487)
date unknown:
James Tuchet, 5th Baron Audley (d. 1459)
Luca della Robbia, Florentine sculptor (d. 1482)
Isabella, Duchess of Lorraine (d. 1453).
Richard Neville, 5th Earl of Salisbury, English politician (d. 1460)
Owen Tudor, Welsh courtier (d. 1461)
Rogier van der Weyden, Dutch painter (or 1399) / (1399 or 1400 – 18 June 1464)
Hans Multscher, German painter and sculptor (d. 1467)

I have omitted one who lived past 70 years, since her death year is unknown. For Rogier, I had to go to the article to find out the death year.

1401

March 27 – Albert III, Duke of Bavaria-Munich (d. 1460)
May 10 – Thomas Tuddenham, Landowner (d. 1462)
July 23 – Francesco I Sforza, Italian condottiero (d. 1466)[3]
September 14 – Maria of Castile, Queen of Aragon, Queen consort of Aragon and Naples (d. 1458)
October 27 – Catherine of Valois, queen consort of England from 1420 until 1422 (d. 1437)[4]
October 28 – Thomas St Clere, English landowner (d. 1435)
November 26 – Henry Beaufort, 2nd Earl of Somerset (d. 1418)
December 21 – Tommaso Masaccio, Italian painter (d. 1428)
date unknown
Charles I, Duke of Bourbon (d. 1456)
Jacqueline, Countess of Hainaut (d. 1436)

I have omitted one non-European, as Japanese Emperors are hardly what you want to know about.

1402 etc ... you take as many years as possible. The more, the better.

Then you line up the ages in order:

17 28 34 36 36 39 42 53 56 57 59 59 60 61 61 62 64/65 65 67 82 87

One lifespan has two values, so this gives two lines (always bother only about highest and lowest, and with several having more than one value, bother about a line with highest only and one with lowest only).

17 28 34 36 36 39 42 53 56 57 59 59 60 61 61 62 64 65 67 82 87
17 28 34 36 36 39 42 53 56 57 59 59 60 61 61 62 65 65 67 82 87

And add place values:

17 28 34 36 36 39 42 53 56 57 59 59 60 61 61 62 64 65 67 82 87
17 28 34 36 36 39 42 53 56 57 59 59 60 61 61 62 65 65 67 82 87
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

Minimum 17, maximum 87.
Median 59
Lower quartile 39, higher quartile 62.

So, mostly about 39 to 62, centering around 59. The one lifespan with two values is between HQ and Maximum, so doesn't affect the result.

You can of course take a medium instead. Add 17+28+ ... + 87 and then divide the sum by 21.

Now, some more : the material is nearly uniformly people who did not die in childhood, so the answer is only valid if you add the proviso excluding the infant and juvenile mortality, and the material is mostly men, so women are not so represented.

The latter can be remedied by making separate calculations for men and women.

This is the method, I have done some work on my part according to it, now you do your work.

More Babel and Genesis on Quora

On Babel, Archaeology and Historic Linguistics · More Babel and Genesis on Quora

Q I

How did Medieval Catholicism explain the differences between the cultures of their day?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Medieval-Catholicism-explain-the-differences-between-the-cultures-of-their-day/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

John K Williamsson

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 1m ago

Partly diversity between Romans, Greeks, Arabic, Germanic, Celtic, Slavic and Hungarian tribes, and this in turn going back to table of nations and language split after Babel.

Note, each then existing nation was not seen as one of the immediate results of the Babel split, since which nations had both split and merged.

Q II

Is Mesopotamia considered a city, a country, a region, or a civilization?
https://www.quora.com/Is-Mesopotamia-considered-a-city-a-country-a-region-or-a-civilization/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Gary Goh

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 6m ago

Mesopotamia is a region between the rivers Euphrates and Tigris.

It is in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, with North Mesopotamia straddling the three and South Mesopotamia being mid Iraq.

One also refers to Mesopotamian civilisation as one starting with Sumerians and ending its period of independence with Assyrians and Neo-Babylonians. It is named "Mesopotamian civilisation" for having Mesopotamia as its geographic theatre.

However, the region existed before that civilisation and it still exists after it.

Q III

What written account of a people’s ancient history have archaeologists supposedly proven to be false besides Israel’s?
https://www.quora.com/What-written-account-of-a-people-s-ancient-history-have-archaeologists-supposedly-proven-to-be-false-besides-Israel-s/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Robert Sockett

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 15m ago

Thank you for supposedly, since they have not proven Israel's ancient history to be false.

I actually don't know of any, unless Mahabharata (31:st C. BC according to Kali Yuga) is supposed to come after Ramayana, with about 1000 years between, but even then, it is more on Biblical than on archaeology as such grounds that I reject this.

Q IV

Were Adam and Eve Neanderthals or humans?
https://www.quora.com/Were-Adam-and-Eve-Neanderthals-or-humans/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 2h ago

First, Neanderthals are humans.

Then, in pre-Flood times, Cro-Magnon, Neanderthals and Denisovans (who are probably same as Antecessor and Heidelbergian) came from Adam and Eve, some possibly by nephelim or transgenics.

Then some Neanderthal and Denisovan, but mainly Cro-Magnon heritage went on the Ark.

Since Noah was only tenth from Adam, Adam might have been closer to Cro-Magnon than to Neanderthal and Denisovan.

Q V

Were Adam and Eve adults when God created them?
https://www.quora.com/Were-Adam-and-Eve-adults-when-God-created-them/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 3h ago

Yes, they were physically adults and also had adult mental capacities.

Only, they did not have a modern adult experience, and the one we have is so dependent on their sin and its consequences that they couldn’t have had it.

Q VI

If God just created Adam and Eve, where did Neanderthals come from?
https://www.quora.com/If-God-just-created-Adam-and-Eve-where-did-Neanderthals-come-from/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 3h ago

From Adam and Eve.

Q VII

Does the Old Testament/Tanakh explain why many people (Adam, Noah, etc.) lived so long and why we no longer do?
https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Old-Testament-Tanakh-explain-why-many-people-Adam-Noah-etc-lived-so-long-and-why-we-no-longer-do/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Michael Hogan

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 3h ago

Genesis 6:3

And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Challoner comment : [3] "His days shall be": The meaning is, that man's days, which before the flood were usually 900 years, should now be reduced to 120 years. Or rather, that God would allow men this term of 120 years, for their repentance and conversion, before he would send the deluge.

Douay-Rheims Bible (Genesis 6)

Now, if the former meaning is taken, the post-Flood generations in Genesis 11 show a gradual descent to the age 120 years (or younger) at death.

Douay-Rheims Bible (Genesis 11)

These are the generations of Sem: Sem was a hundred years old when he begot Arphaxad, two years after the flood. And Sem lived after he begot Arphaxad, five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. … And Nachor lived nine and twenty years, and begot Thare. And Nachor lived after he begot Thare, a hundred and nineteen years: and begot sons and daughters. (verses 10,11 and 24,25)

600 years for Sem down to 148 years for Nachor, his son however a rise to 205 years …

Q VIII

Why are cavemen, dinosaurs, neanderthals, etc. not mentioned in the Bible?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-cavemen-dinosaurs-neanderthals-etc-not-mentioned-in-the-Bible/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 19h ago

Who says they aren’t?

First of all, if Noah’s family lived as cavemen after the Flood and Noah became a husbandman only late near his death, why would the Bible mention the cave dwelling if it was not relevant?

Second, the Bible mentions dragons, more than once, and also unicorns, which can be ceratopsians.

Third, Neanderthals would have been part of the ancestry of one daughter in law of Noah, but even so the Bible need not mention her ancestry, since it didn’t even mention her name (or the other daughters in law’s names).

Q IX

Are the Sumerians mentioned in the Bible?
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-Sumerians-mentioned-in-the-Bible

2 Answers

A 1

Answer requested by

Ayana Ates

Jay Altieri

Commercial General Contractor and Bible Student

Answered Mon

The Sumerians predate most of the biblical history. Their glory days would have been after Tower of Babel (Gen 11) and before birth of Abram (Gen12). Their history is not relevant to the history of salvation and God's dealing with humanity, so it is skipped.

There is a possible anachronistic mention of a famous Sumerian city, that Abram was born in: Ur of the Chaldees.

In Abram's time (about 2000bc), the Sumerians were winding down. The Akkadians took over and then the Gutians, then Ur had a 3rd dynasty. The exact timing of how all of that coincides with Abram's life is disputed and not really known. But Ur is almost certainly one of the great Sumerian city states. Calling the city "of the Chaldees" is an anachronism. Chaldean people didn't show up till 100's of years after Abram, in the neo-Babylonian period. This redaction edit was probably added by Ezra or whoever did the final tweaking and polishing of Genesis during the Persian period.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

20h ago

“Their glory days would have been after Tower of Babel (Gen 11) and before birth of Abram (Gen12).”

Sorry, but while Abraham was born in 2015 BC, arguably that would carbon date as 4000 BC or older, so Ur would have been around from his birth or youth or so.

The carbon dated 2000 are way later, after Joseph in Egypt, c. 1700 BC, since Joseph is Imhotep, whose Pharao Djoser’s coffin is carbon dated to 2600 BC.

“Calling the city "of the Chaldees" is an anachronism.”

Unless it’s another place than Ur of Woolley …

“Their history is not relevant to the history of salvation and God's dealing with humanity, so it is skipped.”

The time of their history can’t be. Everything from Adam and Eve to us and to Doomsday is salvation history. From Our Lord to us, we have the Church mentioned.

A 2

David Musgrove

studied The Bible & Theology (1985)

Answered Sun

Yes but Sumer is Shinar in the bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue

I think you are wrong.

Shinar was all of Mesopotamia, not just Sumer. Both Sumer and Sinjar may have been named for Shinar, without exercising effective control over it (confer how Murrican and Americano are used these days, neither having full control over all Americas).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Wait, I might be overdoing it. In Genesis 11, Shinar is Mesopotamia, but in Genesis 14, Amraphel may have been king of only Sumer.

Q

Is there an attempt to make ancient civilisations consistent with the biblical narrative, namely dividing historic periods according to antediluvian, pre-Babel, and post-Babel, instead of the present classification based on materials?
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-attempt-to-make-ancient-civilisations-consistent-with-the-biblical-narrative-namely-dividing-historic-periods-according-to-antediluvian-pre-Babel-and-post-Babel-instead-of-the-present-classification/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Tue

Well, I am doing one and I am also basing it on materials.

Materials dated “3500 BC” by carbon are from Abraham’s lifetime. Genesis 14 describes the occasion on which Amorrhites left En-Geddi (=Asason-Tamar), and reed mats a bit away from the place with chalcolithic temple treasures from it have been carbon dated to 3500 BC. Real date would be around 1940 - 35 BC, when Abraham was c. 75 - 80.

Material carbon dated 9600 - 8600 BC (Göbekli Tepe) would be Babel.

Material carbon dated 38 000 - 9600 BC would be post-Flood and pre-Babel.

Or, a material carbon dated 38 000 BC could be just at the end of the pre-Flood era, in the year of the Flood.