Saturday, November 2, 2019

On Proselytism in Holy Land

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : On Proselytism in Holy Land · Are There Catholic Censors Too? Probably ... · Is Jenna Moreci Confirming Mark Lipschitz? · New blog on the kid : Why am I Still on the Street

People like some of these hate my mother. Situations stemming from attitudes like these may very probably be behind de-Halakhisation of Catholicism - way before Constantine.

Is Christian proselytizing illegal in Israel?

Curtis Scissons
B.S Biology & Chemistry, Northwestern State University (1998)
Answered Wed
Christian proselytizing (to Jews) is indeed illegal in Israel. Mainly because of the underhanded tactics such people have used in the past to try to lure the unwary into their web of lies and deceit.

Such as dressing up as Haredi and infiltrating the Jewish neighborhoods where such groups live

Such as pretending to be Jewish so as to be able to make Aliyah under the Law of Return, then when in Israel, attempting to tell us Jews about the “good News” of Jesus.


Hans-Georg Lundahl
If Jewish as to Aliyah rights is defined as ancestry, some of them or all of them arguably are Jewish. No lying.

And when my grandpa was offered Aliyah, the fact that he was an agnostic and baptised posed no problem - he just chose not to take the offer.

Curtis Scissons
Original Author
Thre have been several cases when Halachically Jewish applicants were denied Aliyah beccause their stated purpose was to proselytise. One case was (I think) Rufesien?

I a

Hans-Georg Lundahl
OK, in other words the Zionist state is persecuting Christianity.

Glad my gramp did not take Aliyah.

Curtis Scissons
Original Author
You darn right they are. Ain’t it great??!?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Great disaster, if so.

I b

Marc Lipshitz
14h ago
Actually the law is very clear: Hews that have converted to any other religion are NOT included in the law of return and would have to enter like every other non-Jew. No persecution, but is treating them as they want to be treated, as non-Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
“Hews that have converted to any other religion are NOT included in the law of return”

Since when?

My grandfather was offered Aliyah, he was baptised and not (as far as I know) circumcised.

Marc Lipshitz
6h ago
Since 1970 when the amendment was passed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
OK, I am born in 1968 and he got there for a visit before my birth.

So, he had foresight in turning it down.

His oldest brother was a devout Christian, even if he was Agnostic.

He could arguably already then see sth would be wrong for family if going to a land where Herod the Great is a national hero - or where Palestinian rights were neglected - or where granny couldn’t stand the heat for her heartproblem.

Marc Lipshitz
9h ago
Ah, now we see the true colors showing with the false claims being made: Herod is NOT a national hero and Arab Israelis have the same rights as every other citizen. As for your granny’s heart problem- if she were in Israel she would be reveiving the most advanced medical treatment available so maybe the heat wouldn’t be a problem at all.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
I am sorry, but all information I had heard implies that he is or was to recently honoured, like for building Masada fortress and things like that.

Arab Israeli citizens are not the only Palestinians.

My granny died in 1993 and my gramp in 1976. Perhaps the very advanced treatments were already there, but even so, she didn’t like being in too hot weather.

So if my claims are false, show how they are so. Show an official tourist site about Masada where Herod is treated like a crook. I rather think you being a South Africa residing pious Jew, you might not relish all that Zionism stands for.

For that matter, show me a Haaretz or Jerusalem Post article in which Herod is treated like very unfortunate. And not one signed as letters to the paper where a pious Jew is showing an opinion not shared by the paper.

As for true colours, well, I am anti-Zionist, but I was Zionist before I realised Palestinians are Israelites and how such Palestinians as are not citizens of Israel are treated.

I did not try to actively hide either aspect of my attitude.


Caroline Ben-Ari
My understanding is it's not illegal per se, it's only illegal if there's any type of “incentive” offered to the potential convert in return for converting.

Ephraim Herer
Apparently according to Wikipedia it (was?) also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent were an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor. Despite the legality of proselytism, the government has taken a number of steps that encouraged the perception that proselytizing is against government policy. For example, the MOI has detained individuals suspected of being “missionaries,” and required of such persons bail and a pledge to abstain from missionary activity, in addition to refusing them entry into the country...The MOI has also cited proselytism as a reason to deny student, work, and religious visa extensions, as well as to deny permanent residency petitions.

Marc Lipshitz
1 upvote from Ephraim Herer
Yes, non-citizens coming into Israel are expected to actually behave themselves and respect the native population. Every country can put conditions on non-citizens entering. However, those who are citizens can easily engage in proselytization as long as they do not offer any form of inducements to convert.


Marc Lipshitz
It should be illegal- it isn’t. It is only illegal when some form of inducement is used. Pure talking and preaching is, unfortunately, allowed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
Unfortunately … Thanks for being that candid about your hatred of speech.

One question, how often is it people like you make conditions worse for a convert and “missionaries” cannot help him due to the clause about “illegal if some form of inducement is used”?

Marc Lipshitz
14h ago
No hatred of speech- but hatred of those that cause the deaths of souls of others by their speech.

And denying inducements to missionaries leads to hard ship which they created. If the people had remained Jewish they would have had a commujity to support them. Not our fault if the after they convert they no longer have a community that would support them. Receiving charity funds is not illegal unless it was part of them promises made when they were converted or conditional on their conversion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
“but hatred of those that cause the deaths of souls of others by their speech.”

That involves a hatred of their speech.

I concur about speech causing death of souls being a hateful thing but it is your speech and not the Catholic one which kills souls.

Also even converting to Evangelical is getting nearer to the truth in some ways, if not from Catholicism.

“Not our fault if the after they convert they no longer have a community that would support them.”

In other words, you are denying them both your own community and the one they went to.

“unless it was part of them promises made when they were converted or conditional on their conversion.”

Meaning they can get just some little support from their new community in proportion as it also gives same support to unconverted Jews. Who can harrass the converted ones.

Yes, in such a case it IS your fault, between state laws and community if they are in undeserved hardships.

Marc Lipshitz
6h ago
Wrong- it’s simple: the Jewish community supports Jews, not non-Jews. If missionaries offerninducements to convert innIsraelntheybhave broken the law, and the person who has converted has left the community and is no longer supported by the Jewish community. Why should we support them when they have chosen to leave?

and my speech kills zero souls but saves them. Getting Jews to abandon G-d kills their souls. Stopping them from doing so saves them from that fate.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
It would have been simple if you had not also an evil law which forbade the Christian or semi-Christian (Evangelical) communities from supporting them.

And if the community “of Israelite confession” had not been a big reason there is this law, which is contrary to God’s.

You are blind and if blind or self blinded allow themselves to be led by you, they fall with you into the pit.

Marc Lipshitz
9h ago
You can invent whatever law you like but there is no “evil law” preventing Christians from supporting other Christians. The law is that no inducement can be offered to convert- after they have converted nothing wrong with a community providing support unless it was part of what was offered to get the person to convert. What is evil is people using the misfortune of others to get them to convert and destroy their souls.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
OK, “unless it was part of what was offered” … “using the misfortune of others” even one contingent on their conversion?

It is not very obscure how the conditions you outline could be abused to first allow someone to convert, then at first allow the community he converted to to succour him, then belatedly find out they had breathed some indication about them being able to support in that particular way, and therefore conclude the support is forbidden since “part of what was offered to get the person to convert”.

Laws are like dogs : they can run as far as the leash lets them. The formulations you are giving are open to horrible abuse, and I think some Jewry in Paris have underhand stopped Catholics from supporting me, as they had hoped for my applying for Israeli statehood and are “preliminarily” applying application conditions.

While I am not in any decently reasonable sense a convert from Judaism, I am one to Catholicism, I am also a writer and it seems Catholics over here have some trouble helping me out as a writer.

Not sure whether the Jewish tactic had been threats or making me look bad (like a double agent) before Catholics, but I am sure I have met hatred over here.

Here is one example I documented by a screenshot published on my blog:

I am NOT a National Socialist, But Some Take me For That

Marc Lipshitz
17h ago
As much as anti-Semites want to blame Jews, their is ok “Jewish tactic” causing you hardship. Jews have zero control over what Catholics do in Paris, you’ll have to find your scapegoats elsewhere.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
Rabbi Krygier is very good friends with the Vatican II-ers.

I went out on his behalf so as to alienate SSPX-ers by saying if the “archbishop” simply during Advent wants him to tell Christians fasting is important in Judaism too, that’s OK.

Then I saw what he had actually been saying in Notre Dame, namely that there were criteria Christ had not fulfilled for the Messiah and that we needed to build a Messianic future collectively together instead of waiting for an individual Messiah.

I stamped his vision of the future as blasphemy and I verified that Isaiah 11, at least from “his sepulchre shall be glorious” on has been fulfilled verse by verse by Resurrection and by first Catholics uniting Church of Jerusalem to a second Church in Samaria and by the Church then spreading to Edom, Moab and Ammon when the Church of Jerusalem fled to Pella and next we have verses by and large fulfilled by Christian populations in Egypt and Iraq. AND Palestinians are to this day fulfilling the promise insofar as they are Christians.

Some years later, when I was begging, I saw rabbi Krygier walk by with a Catholic priest or Vatican-II sect clergyman, and while I cannot verify whether it was me they talked of, I overheard and was maybe meant to overhear words, certainly speaking of hatred, perhaps if I don’t misrecall, even of mental illness or madness.

He is rabbi of the Masorti Jews in Paris.

In St. Nicolas du Chardonnet I think some of the converts from Judaism have spread a word, if not directly from him.

Catholics here are very sensible to Jews complaining about someone being a Nazi and they are not always scrupulously checking the allegation against the person’s own statements, even if they are available in plenty on my blogs. If Jews consistently have complained as that AO person (you checked the link and the screenshot, right) whom I anonymised so as not to expose him to vendettas if I should have fans capable of doing such, of the supposed fact I “am a Nazi” as they claim, there are Catholics in plenty whom that will sway to consider me as at least if not Nazi, mentally ill. Which is not the best way to get them printing my texts commercially, if you see what I mean.

Calumny is sufficient for such Jews to be guilty, even if they do not directly control the Catholic parishes in question.

Marc Lipshitz
18m ago
The Vatican rejects your writings and you try to allege that it is the fault of the Jews…. Anti-Senites like to claim Jews control everything, we don’t especially not mother religions and their hierarchy. The Vatican has rejected you that is because they chose to do it- it has nothing to do with the Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
The Vatican does not control everything Catholics do in Paris. It most definitely has given no official public declaration no one can print what I write - which is the usual Catholic mode for rejecting someone’s writings. In fact, the one foreseen by canon law.

Some parts of my writings are so little theological that ordinarily speaking even under older laws, bishops and popes would have no say about it, unless I went out of my way to include sth totally anti-Catholic.

St. Nicolas du Chardonnet, where I was a parishioner, is specifically rejecting many directives from the Vatican, claiming “the Pope is Pope, but a bad one whom we do not need to obey or even ought to obey”.

There is where Jewish influence would be least direct. Like Jews influencing parish of St. Étienne du Mont, that one influencing its policemen, and these influencing colleagues who prefer St. Nicolas du Chardonnet who are then in a position to argue to the priests there about me.

Now, would there be Jewish influence both in the Vatican and in the parishes that unlike St. Nicolas du Chardonnet accept its directives (including St. Étienne)? “Pope Francis” is friends with Rabbi Skorka. At least one, probably more Catholic clergymen of Paris are friends with Rabbi Krygier.

Again, both in any “normal” parish and even in St. Nicolas du Chardonnet, the accusation of being a Nazi would be damning enough for no one to want to look at what I do and apart from St. Nicolas du Chardonnet and the Sedevacantist parish, every other parish in Paris can be influenced by Jews via ecumenism. At least on the level of obeying their archbishop.

Cardinal Lustiger was a Jew who converted and he set the policy of a very close relationship between the diocese and the Parisian Jews (especially ecumenic ones like Masorti Jews).

Marc Lipshitz
Just now
Let’s repeat: the Jews do not control why Catholics do. If your writings are rejected from publication by Catholics that means they do it want to publish them- it has nothing to do with the Jews. They obviously do not see your writings as worthy of being published, you may think they are, but they disagree with you. It has zero to do with the Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
"Let’s repeat: the Jews do not control why Catholics do."

You control what you do. Some Jews play violin and some play piano. I compose music too. Secular, if not klezmer.

Plus guilt for what Catholics do is as said not limited to controlling them, it also is the case if you succeed in calumniating me before them.

Plus Lustiger put the parishes of Paris and the archdiocese of Paris into such a close ecumenic relation with Judaism, that your assessment is not totally realistic. One reason to reject Vatican II establishment is, it lies flat over when Jews complain.

"If your writings are rejected from publication by Catholics that means they do it want to publish them- it has nothing to do with the Jews."

Supposing they saw them in the first place and did not simply take the word of Jews for what they are. When my blogs are advertised in Paris and get 3 hits in France one day for 70 or 100 in Ukraine, or sometimes Russia, the suspects for denouncing me unduly in Paris are limited options, and Jews are one of them (Orthodox, Evangelicals, Communists, Psychiatrists being other options).

"They obviously do not see your writings as worthy of being published, you may think they are, but they disagree with you."

I have not even seen a reasoned disagreement. I have had "I will look" and next week "I haven't had time to look". In other words people are being discouraged from looking. I have not had any editor or clergyman write me "we reject your writings, because ..." so and so.

Plus some of my writings might be of interest to pious Jews, I have given conditions so that you could start re-publishing those ones on paper, and your chosing not to has nothing to do with the Catholics, it's your choice - unless the Jewish leaders here and the Catholic leaders here are in it together.

"It has zero to do with the Jews."

As said, it has. Probably with Muslims too. But perhaps less, judging from stats.

Take a look at three blogs that I have been advertising in Paris region these last days, for last 24 hours the stats are:

Ukraine 54
Pologne 30
Russie 14
États-Unis 13
Australie 3
Émirats arabes unis 2
Argentine 2
France 2 + 2 more countries with 2.

États-Unis 62
Allemagne 3
Japon 2
Australie 1
Canada 1
Russie 1 (no France)

États-Unis 1 (no France)

These two have on and off also been advertised, on separate cardboards:

États-Unis 64
Ukraine 7
France 3 plus 4 more with 1 each

Italie 72
États-Unis 3
France 2
Ukraine 2

URLs will be given if you want to know.

[But he didn't like to analyse the facts in his answer, so he didn't ask:]

Marc Lipshitz
3m ago
Advertise wherever you like- your success or failure is about you, not the Jews. Yes, we know people like to blame the Jews when they fail, it’s so much easier than taking responsibility for themselves!

Let’s repeat: the Jews have nothing to do with the Catholics not wanting to publish why you wrote. Nothing to do with Catholics not wanting to associate with you. Yes, we can see you like to blame the Jews, too bad for you that you look to blame others instead of taking responsibility and growing up and being able to grow.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
"Advertise wherever you like- your success or failure is about you, not the Jews."

A fine example of Jewish prejudice, and as it is pure guess work about my worth, based on prejudice, it is even a lie.

"Yes, we know people like to blame the Jews when they fail, it’s so much easier than taking responsibility for themselves!"

There is a difference between failing and being exposed to a blockade.

"Let’s repeat: the Jews have nothing to do with the Catholics not wanting to publish why you wrote."

Jewish pilpul.

Plus again, a priori guess work, totally ignoring the facts I presented.

"Nothing to do with Catholics not wanting to associate with you."

You are even overdoing it. I didn't say that they didn't want that. Some do, others do not.

"Yes, we can see you like to blame the Jews, too bad for you that you look to blame others instead of taking responsibility and growing up and being able to grow."

Identifying a blockade and Jews with a prejudice like yours (the one you expressed and I cited) as part of it, that is definitely part of taking responsibility, once the issue is sufficiently clear. As I am 51, I am already grown up. I don't do your "mental age" schmuck. And if Catholics do, it has something to do with them associating with you who have done it for quite some time. You just illustrated what I mean.


Mike Nelson
For the underhanded tactics used by some misguided Christians, I have no problem with that being illegal. I have an issue with a blanket prohibition. For example let’s say I visit Israel and share my faith with a Jew who is willing to hear and non-fraudulently, non-harrassingly, non-coercively attempt to convince him to accept Christianity. Have I committed a crime?

Curtis Scissons
Original Author
Wed · 1 upvote
Why would you want to “Share your faith” with a Jew? Do you think there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus? I promise, we all have. Over and over and over. Plz keep your faith to yourself.

V a

Mike Nelson
I heard the Word hundreds of times before I before I believed it and I have been harassed by the people you have described, both before and after I became a Christian. Those misguided Christian who use those tactics drive people away, they don’t draw them to Christ. I have never been to Israel. But in Los Angeles I did ask someone “Would you like to hear more about Jesus Christ?” not stupidly assuming he knew nothing at all. When he answered “Not interested, I’m Jewish.” I said “God bless you” and left him. Had that happened in Jerusalem rather than Los Angeles, would I have committed a crime under Israeli law? I understand that Jews do not proselytize, but Christians do, it’s part of our faith. When a Muslim wants to tell me about his faith, I say “not interested, I’m a Christian” but I don’t get angry at him for asking.

Marc Lipshitz
14h ago
No crime if you just speak to them. It is not unclear- no inducements are allowed, no gifts, no promises of favors but just plain speech is allowed. It is likely to get a negative reaction most of the time- JEWs in general are tired of missionaries and your incessant attempts to convert us.

V b

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now “Do you think there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus? I promise, we all have. Over and over and over. “

From your rabbis, plus perhaps (even in Israel) quickly closing your ears.

Curtis Scissons
Original Author
9h ago
Uh.. No. Not from rabbis.

From Christian proselytisers being obnoxious jerks and doing things like sneaking in our synagogue to tell us “Good News" during Yom Kippur, laying hands on the synagogue building itself to “remove the scales from our eyes",

Having an alter call during a public school assembly (-John Jacobs and the Power Team)'’ , passing out evangelical literature to the Jewish kids during field trips to different places of worsip,

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Just now
OK, sounds obnoxious as far as synagogues go.

They probably think they are imitating Apostles praying in the Temple or St. Paul preaching in Synagogues.

Next time please tell them, the Temple was common heritage between Christians and what is now called Jews and the synagogues to which St. Paul went had not yet pronounced the excommunications on Christians at the Sanhedrin of Jamnia.

As to schools, if Christians are admitted to them, they have as much a right as synagogue representatives to hand out material. You can’t righteously have BOTH a public school system and a severe apartheid within it on which parents can be represented and which cannot in passing out literature to the pupils.

EDIT : in the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did not interfere in your entirely separate school system and reserved a right to preach in synogogues exactly once a year.

When trying to reach Rivon Krygier's synagogue Adath Shalom, to give him an opportunity to answer, I met this:

Le filtre anti-pourriel (anti-spam) installé sur ce site est actuellement indisponible. Nous ne pouvons accepter de nouvelles soumissions jusqu'à ce que le problème soit résolu. Essayez de soumettre à nouveau le formulaire dans quelques minutes.

It is symbolic of there being a rejection which is automatic rather than reflected. When I tried to consult the privacy policy, it timed out, conveniently too.

As to previously mentioned taking responsibility for one's results (as Mark Lipschitz might say), here is Jeremiah 10:23

I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.

And here the Challoner comment:

"The way of a man is not his": The meaning is, that notwithstanding man's free will, yet he can do no good without God's help, nor evil without his permission. So that, in the present case, all the evils which Nabuchodonosor was about to bring upon Jerusalem, could not have come but by the will of God.