Thursday, February 13, 2020

Responding to Heiser's Presentation on Angelology

To Heiser on Stele of Naram-Sin · To Heiser on Egyptian Dinosaurs · Responding to Heiser's Presentation on Angelology

Angels - Biblical and Fringe Beliefs
FringePop321 | 23.XII.2019

1:43 After looking at preview, I am glad you took "stars" as one term for angels.

I would disagree on stars describing their nature, and would place the term among terms describing their function.

There is an angel you can call Sol, there is an angel you can call Luna, there is an angel you can call alpha Centauri (or perhaps 3 of them). They are called that as per the fact they move the bodies that astronomers observe.

Alternative idea would be, the term "stars" really describes their nature, and in that case Sol, Luna, the three bodies of alpha Centauri etc are contrary to Thomistic thought on the subject, living bodies.

Either way, we are not allowed to worship them, but we are allowed to tell them to praise the common maker (Daniel 3, Catholic version) and Joshua (chapter 10) was allowed to speak to two of them to order them a changed behaviour.

3:33 "if [etc] ... you don't really need a body"

Sounds you take the position the bodies observed by astronomers are not in and of themselves the living creatures that angelology studies.

Fair enough, leaves the relevant Bible passages as making angels move bodies that in and of themselves are inert.

Like St. Thomas Aquinas stated in more than one place.

Just so you don't think I'm making this up or got it from "an angel I contacted", or sth like that:

Neglected Angelology in the Angelic Doctor - hanslundahl

A list of passages in St. Thomas Aquinas, to which I would add his commentary on Job 38:7, which I discovered after making this post.

8:20 Nevertheless, the Catholic Church has taken two initiatives for talking to angels.

She has, as our mother and teacher, authorised a prayer to St. Michael:

Sancte Michael archangele, defende nos in proelio ...

And She has authorised a prayer to one's own guardian angel:

Angele Dei, qui custos es mei ...

Biblical precedent or not, there is one for obeying the Church and for considering these prayers as perfectly licit.

Obviously, they are not prayers of adoration to these angels, since adoration belongs to God alone.

9:28 Could one compare for instance guardian angels to hypnotherapists?

Let's say a hypnotherapist helps you quit smoking. He or she doesn't do that by obeying your commands, but by giving you commands. The hypnotherapist serves, but definitely is not at the obedient end of the relation.

Dito for guardian angels, where we in the named prayer actually ask them to GUIDE us. And not listen to our guidance or anything of that kind.

11:02 One place in the Bible a heavenly being or actually two of them did take orders from a human.

But note very well, that human's name was the Hebrew equivalent of Jesus.

Joshua 10:12, a man who in the LXX is "IHCOYC NAYE" commands two heavenly beings of the function category "stars".

Just as a reminder that a Man who was and is also first and foremost God, who got the same name by circumcision, had no problem commanding twelve legions, if He had wanted protection from His captors.

Hence the hymn also calls Him "regem angelorum".

12:12 We most certainly should cooperate with our guardian angels.

If Aegistus had cooperated with his and left Clytaemnestra alone .... (the Greeks mistermed the guardian angel as "the god Hermes", but that doesn't really change that probably it was precisely his guardian angel).

14:55 This reminds me, the Blessed Virgin Mary was a perfect example of this caution.

Angel tells Her "Blessed among women" - She was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
A priest's wife tells Her "Blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" - She And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour

There is another reason for it too, but one reason is, the angel doesn't leave it with an angel encounter, it becomes a question of encountering a priest via his wife.

It's a bit like a cloaked person makes a rendez-vous, you worry if it is count Dracula, and the rendez-vous is in San Juan de Ortega - they serve garlic in the soup, there is a Crucifix on the wall of both dining hall and elsewhere and both meal prayers and other prayers are in Latin. Not what Count Dracula would have wanted.

18:23 It may be noted the guy here saying - Steve Bancarz, right? - "God told me" ... I would not say his guardian angel is showing his own face which he takes for the face of Christ, but I would say his guardian angel is providing "television" by telepathy to his imagination about how Christ sees him in Heaven.

Listening to God in this sense is listening to your guardian angel. (Who has no reason to impose his own person rather than show Christ to you, usually).

There are occasions when guardian angels appeared, like the guardian angel who lifted the car wheel that passed over a small child without hurting him. Source : the angel book by Mother Basilea Schlink, a then Lutheran nun and abbess in Darmstadt. I think her congregation may since then have converted.

20:55 Dr. Michael Heiser, the great commission does not apply directly to either of us two.

Neither of us is one of the eleven whom He spoke to, and neither of us, as far as I know your background, was ever consecrated a bishop or even ordained a priest by their successors.

Lay apostolate is a thing, but it does not involve authoritatively Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and except in danger of death, we are also not supposed as laymen to touch baptizing them as that belongs to deacons, priests and bishops. Unless you are a midwife, with a keen eye on the potential for child mortality. Then the Church has given you a permission or even order to perform the minimal necessities of baptism.

Neither of us is a midwife either.

As lay theologians, we are there to remind what people with more authority than we have taught.

24:35 I am very glad Steve Bancarz (if that's the guy) is being sarcastic ...

As to the guy who told him these things, I think I would need some garlic, crucifix and prayers in Latin ...

25:36 Angels and demons have the same natural powers given by God at their creation, and while a Poltergeist only uses this to terrorise as long as God gives him permission to torment (a permission withdrawn twice in a Spanish nunnery when Sister Eusebia Palomino Yenes prayed a Hail Mary before a priest could come and do an exorcism), good angels have these powers, of moving matter, too.

St. Patrick hung up his gloves in order to pray the hours, and when he was done he saw he had hung them on light beams.

But he wasn't out to have angels minister to him, he was out to glorify God by prayer and only hung the gloves on light beams because he missed the nails in his hurry to get to prayer.

NOT really comparable to a guy who seriously hopes angels shall turn his door knobs because it's cool.

26:03 If it is really from God, the frying of light bulbs, etc, that might indicate there is something demonic about electricity.

I'm not rushing off to conclude that, though it has been argued, but Pope Michael is so far using the internet, which involves electricity, so - it should be OK for obedience sake, if not in itself.

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