Wednesday, June 8, 2022

I am Still Not a Zionist

This video, unfortunately, has already had 165 328 views since four days ago.

Can this be true? Israel will claim what was promised?
4th June 2022 | Israel MyChannel

It is faulty on more than one issue, so here are my comments:

4:50 Abraham was born 2015 BC.

5:56 Yes, Canaan in Joshua's day was not a desert.

But it was inhabited by people who had gone from somewhat bad in Abraham's day, to worse when he wants a wife for his son and even worse than that in Moses' time.

God gave the land to Israel, not because the rights of Canaanites were irrelevant, they were not, but because they had been forfeited by crimes.

One of which was by the way sodomy. So, in 1948, did you take over the land because God decided to punish Arabs for holding Pride Parades or is someone else holding Pride Parades now?

Another crime was killing children. In 1948, had God decided to punish the Arabs for being abortion liberal, or is someone else making more abortions than anyone else in the area?

Someone else, whom you are not punishing. Whom you do not wish to punish.

6:20 Yes, sure. Abraham's, Isaac's and Jacob's lineage.

2000 years ago, they lived in the Land. Some of them, a few years later, as Christians.

Now, I am not asking you to take Muslim's words for it, I am asking you to read what Christian historians have to say on what happened to these.

For instance, in Stephan Borgehammar's book "How the Holy Cross was Found : from Event to Medieval Legend" he gives versions of the legend of St. Helen finding the Holy Cross, obviously, so early that "Medieval" might seem inappropriate, by the way, except they were re-read more than once during the Middle Ages - BUT before that he gives a general overview (in the view of modern Academia more objective) of what happened geographically and historically.

For instance, the year 70 saw the destruction of Jerusalem, but the Christian community there were not massacred, they had fled into Jordan. Did all of them stay in Pella, now known as Tabagat Fahl (Tabaqat Fahil)? No, there was a return to Jerusalem, and when Romans fought off their attempts to venerate the Holy Sepulchre by building a Venus temple over it, they stated to their descendants that "well, Calvary and Holy Sepulchre is where the Romans built a temple to a harlot goddess to spite us" ...

So, 313, when Christianity becomes licit, a few years before St. Helen comes along, the population of the Holy Land, Christians like Jews, still descend from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But what happened in ensuing years, up to the Muslim conquest?

The Jewish population shrank, and some have described this as Jews being ousted by Gentiles. In fact Jews converted, lots of them, to Christianity.

Now comes another author. The Desert a City was written by Derwas A. Chitty. He wrote mainly about Egyptian monasticism, but there is a final one on monasticism in Palestine.

During the invasion of Chosroes, lots of Jews "reverted to the Jewish religion of their ancestors" (I had a problem with Derwas apparently confusing the OT religion of those who had been Christians since 33 with the Jewish one, but in fact Jews had probably converted after 313 too). And when Heraclius came along, they either followed Chosroes to Persia or reverted to Christianity, those who had attacked Christians.

So, one sign that the population of Roman Palestine in 613 was still Abrahamic and not Italian in ancestry was this. Another one is from the immediate aftermath of the Muslim invasion : Beduin tribes go and tell the monasteries "we were forced to become Muslims, but we are still your friends" ... same book, it ends close after this.

So, in 634–638, not only are lots of Christians descended from Jews, but it's not untypical for them to be Beduins either. More of a Jewish than an Italian habit, even if they were Roman citizens too. In 638, the Holy Land still belonged to descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And now in three religions, Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Basically, their descendants today are Christian Palestinians, Mitsrahi Jews and Muslim Palestinians.

In 1948, descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob began to lose their homes.

6:31 Ishmael is, since I am a Christian, largely irrelevant.

Ishmael got a land South of there, in modern Saudi Arabia, like Madian, another son of Abraham (I don't think Abraham had more sons than these three).

In the Muslim Conquest, the main issue why the number of Muslims go up in the Holy Land is the forced conversion of Christians and of Jews, and sometimes not forced such, into Islam. Sure there was an army there that was prompting this, and that army came from Ishmael and Madian, but the more they were successful to "convert" Christians and Jews, the less percentage they are in the Muslim population of Palestine.

6:58 Perhaps you are thinking of the fact that Palestinians now speak Arabic, a language spoken by the descendants of Ishmael and Madian in the Arabic peninsula, as decisive.

But Arabic didn't become a very big language in Palestine, or the rest of Syria, for centuries, it took that long for administrational pressure to make it even accepted as an everyday language. Even more, Palestinian Christians spoke a dialect of Aramaic up to the countercrusade under Baybars, even more centuries later.

What happened is not that all of them were killed, it's more like how administration forced Gaels to give up Gaelic in favour of English on Ireland.

So, in Baybars' time, Palestinians still descend from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and still have three confessions, Christian, Jew or Muslim, and the Jews not called "Jewish Palestinians" but "Mistrahi Jews." When did he live?

Baibars, Sultan of Egypt and Syria
Reign 24 October 1260 – 1 July 1277

7:43 Here, let's not confuse things.
While Abraham is promised a lot, including land now in Jordan, and while Abraham's promise goes on with Jacob, not Esau, not only is Esau specifically given land in Jordan (along with Moab and Ammon a little earlier), but the prophecy in Isaiah 11 makes it clear that Edom, Moab and Ammon will not be ousted from their land, but become obedient to Israelites.

This was already fulfilled in AD 70, when Christians fleeing to Pella made Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites obedient to Jesus Christ, who is "seed of Abraham" or "son of David son of Abraham" ... and since it was already fulfilled, it is not good to dream of a conquest in order to make Jordan tributary to "Israelis" who are clearly impure, both by rejection of Christ and by promotion of sodomy and abortion.

12:53 Unlike Solomon, Jesus Christ, acting through His Church, actually did conquer Egypt. Lastingly, the Cops up to this day are descendants of Egyptians chosing to obey Him.

14:39 As said, the eternity of the land promise is fulfilled in part by Christian Palestinians, and when it comes to the Nile, by Copts and Melkites.

No need for Tsahal conquests to fulfil it.

15:16 And Christian Palestinians, descending from Jews, Samaritans and Galileans 2000 years ago, still, to this day, descend from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So do, even if they don't want to hear it themselves, Muslim Palestinians.

15:27 The NT does say the first Christians are physically descended from Judah (in Jerusalem, see Acts 2) and Ephraim (in Samaria, the second Church, Acts 8).

As my historic discussion shows, this is still so with their Palestinian descendants, they have not been wholesale replaced.

15:57 The Catholic Church actually is, yes, precisely, the New Israel.

She comprises faithful who are also physically from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
  • in the Palestinian Christians
  • and in Marranos or other converts.
Their loyalty is to the Church that Christ founded, not to a project that already looks very much like "spiritually Sodom and Egypt" (as Apocalypse 11 describes the Jerusalem of the end times, we know it is Jerusalem, since "where their Lord also was crucified" excludes all cities not including Calvary).

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