Sunday, July 31, 2022

Fr. Gregory Pine OP attempts to talk about evolution - part 2

Fr. Gregory Pine OP attempts to talk about evolution: part 1, part 2

Same video as previous part.

11:41 Nice summing up of what Original Sin + Fomes Peccati means.

12:51 That comment by Karol Wojtyla is one reason for rejecting:

  • his having been when saying that Catholic
  • or Pope
  • or being a real saint.

There are two healing miracles attributed to him, one being with relapses (the nun in France with Parkinson symptoms) and the other being with delay (the Latin American who had some brain trauma). In Lourdes, a healing has to be both sudden and complete, apart from being beyond then known natural explanations.

Jose A. Abell M.
So what kind if sede are you? Who is your favorite last pope?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Jose A. Abell M. I am technically not a sede, but a conclavist.

My favourite recent pope is Pope Michael.

Jose A. Abell M.
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I hear he passed away yesterday, God have mercy and may he rest in peace.

You are now a sede though.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Jose A. Abell M. Like every Catholic between a pope's death and a new popes election.

I am not a candidate for succession.


13:19 "evolution is born out by certain evidence in genes"

For what may broadly be termed micro-evolution, definitely yes. Not just change within a species, but "within a created kind" you can have both speciation and even division into more than one genus. There was one couple of hedgehogs on the Ark and there are now 17 species in 5 genera, and a possibility that the 9 species in 5 genera of gymnures also belong here.

But if you mean that human feet, quadrupedal hindlimbs, fins, have similar genes for similar functions and a kind of gradation in how close or not close they are to ours, that doesn't prove a common ancestor, it proves as much (or even rather) a common designer.

Oh, just on the level of genetic code coming "in the same language across species" ... the genetic code codes for proteines made up from diverse amino-acids. When herbivores get proteines from plants or (after the fall) carnivores and omnivores get such from animals, it is actually practical if the proteines digested are made from amino-acids getting into the proteines of the creature digesting.

One could also invoke "artistic economy" in so far as composers tend to be content with 12 notes (albeit in more than one octave).

Tammy Williams-Ankcorn

adrian hanessian
There is no such thing as a "Kind" mutations given from genetic drift over time result in evolution, resulting in new Species. "Created kind" is not a scientific term.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@adrian hanessian It is indeed not a modern scientific term, fortunately.

In both Latin and German and for that matter Swedish, the translation of "kind" was chosen as the Linnean term for species.

Baraminology means, this was a mistake.

We consider the created kind as more close (at least with mammals) to Family or Subfamily. It intuitively makes sense "hedgehogs" are one kind. But they are, by now, 17 species in 5 genera. They are a subfamily, with 9 species (in 5 genera) of gymnures as the other subfamily of the same family.

So hedgehogs (all 5 genera, all 17 species) are one kind within themselves. Gymnures are also one kind within themselves, either same kind or different kind as hedgehogs.

@adrian hanessian lə·mî·nōw, kata genos, juxta genus suum, after its kind all have priority over the scientific usage in its current state since Carolus Linnaeus.

13:34 I have heard about "vestigial organs" and also about them not being so much "pure vestiges" ... Kent Hovind is not the brightest bulb in the lamp when it comes to theology of what the Church is or when it comes to Church history, but when it comes to vestigial (so called such) organs, he's a match for people who unduly admire a comment by Wojtyla.

14:06 Did one on the fossil record myself, the so called "levels" actually aren't such, when it comes to presence of land vertebrate fossils.

The Austriadactylus is not found below the Cetotheriopsis lintianus, but Cetotheriopsis lintianus is found in Linz, in Upper Austria, and Austriadactylus cristatus is found in Anckerschlag, Tyrol.

The distance from Seefeld, where Ankerschlag is, and Lienz is 194.9 km. This is 121 miles and 185 yards.

This is not selective cherrypicking, there are no Oligocene layers of fossils above the pterosaur in Ankerschlag and there are no Norian layers of fossils below the early whale in Lienz. And this is very typical, outside marine biota. Grand Canyon, drill holes in Bonaparte Basin, drill holes generally - that's marine biota. There are several layers of biota while they are still alive and swimming in the sea, scurrying on the bottom or swimming near surface.

Before I go on, for those admiring Wojtyla, the kindest thing is to remind yourself of another comment of his.

"We in the East block are brain washed and know it, you in the West are also brainwashed and don't know it."

So, his admiration of Evolution could likely be a result of East block brainwashing.

14:12 "there is a bridge between a more primitive and a more advanced species"

  • 1) You are borrowing the language of "evolution going upward"
  • 2) There usually isn't.
  • 3) Specifically, there is no combination of Broca area (lacking in apes and Australopitheci) and half-ape ears (of Australopitheci and of Paranthropus, near human outward, but ape inward of the hammer), no combination of human FOXP2 gene with ape-like hyoid (as in Australopithecus), on the contrary, for Australopithecus, we have an ape-hyoid and no palaeogenetic tests so far (last time I checked), for Neanderthal you have a totally human hyoid (Kebara 2) and also a human FOXP2 gene.

I would like to add, K-Ar has in recent times been replaced, often enough, by Ar-Ar. I am less sure about the reason for inflated measures with this one.

15:37 "anatomically modern humans arise between 200 000 and 100 000 years ago"

According to K-Ar dates, probably, which are basically worthless.

You cannot exclude Argon having been trapped, if the lava cooled down during the Flood with lots of water flowing in sideways and from above to cool it down.

You cannot even calibrate the halflife, as you can with Carbon 14, by using objects with organic material of historically known age. Sth that is 2000 years old has a known age in certain parts of the world (like Roman Empire) and 2000 years is a significant part of 5730 years.

Beyond 3000 years ago, historical dating gets a bit iffy, and that is peanuts, it's microscopic, in relation to the purported halflife of 1.28 billion years.

I would like to add, K-Ar has in recent times been replaced, often enough, by Ar-Ar. I am less sure about the reason for inflated measures with this one.

15:41 "behaviourally modern humans arise between 100 000 and 75 000 years ago"

It is easier to ascertain human behaviour with someone buried in a grave than with someone buried under lava, right?

So, the earliest examples of these (or all other) would often be carbon dated, and would be pre-Flood men, while the "anatomically, not behaviourally" would be people in the Flood who got trapped under lava with human customs less observed by them and theirs and less observable by us.

16:08 "never bottlenecked more narrowly than 10 000 breeding pairs"


  • 1) The purported reason is debunked if you look at the population of Pitcairn Island. It has bottlenecked to very few, comparable to "one couple" if that one had a perfect genome, which we today have not;
  • 2) and the consequence is a denial of Adam being individual and ancestral to all men who die. In other words, a denial of Catholic dogma.

16:49 Nicanor Austriaco is one "Dominican" who doesn't even bother to answer emails.

I have emailed him twice with links to my refutations, not even an acknowledgement.

17:22 "there may have been some mutation in the human species that predisposed for the reception of the rational soul"

Broca's area, Wernicke's area (which by itself doesn't seem to leave traces in the skull, it's deduced from Broca's being there), human FOXP2 gene, human ears (both inner and outer parts), human hyoids are all present even in Neanderthals and most of them (hyoids haven't been found, genes haven't been tested) in Homo erectus soloensis.

I would not say these "predispose" to a rational soul, they are intimately connected to one. They are basically useless without one.

More importantly, none of these can be explained with one mutation.

So, Nicanor Austriaco is widely off the mark in presuming there was one mutation in the species Homo sapiens which predisposed to the reception of a rational soul. His view of what mutations do is on the level of Spiderman technoblabla.

17:28 "has something to do with our capacity for language"

Well, it cannot be proven any of that was lacking "before the rise of anatomically modern humans" on the evolutionary view.

Homo erectus soloensis needed language to do tools which were technically close to the Levallois technique, but bigger. Tools which on this dating scheme is dated to more than half a million years ago.

So, if Nicanor Austriaco took his stance seriously, he should conclude Adam lived 1/2 million years ago, which makes the historic transmission of Genesis 3 events an impossibility.

18:26 There is no warrant for distinguishing a biological from a theological kind, when it comes to man.

There are so many traces of men (Sapiens, Neanderthals, Denisovans, Heidelbergians, Antecessors - these last three may be synonyms - and Homo erectus soloensis) having a rational soul either for material equipment for language or from behaviour, that it's ludicrous to "limit" the theological species man to a kind of subspecies of Sapiens sapiens.

18:47 "before the infusion of the human soul"

Sorry, but the material conditions for language only make sense in a kind that has language and having human language is in and of itself a proof of already having a human soul.

19:20 Here we already have the evil I was previously speaking of.

  • 1) "all the descendants of that pair" - Eve would not have had the mutation unless taken from the rib of Adam, but Nicanor may be granting this to the Bible
  • 2) descendants "within that community" - if the pair was the first to speak a human language, it would, with its children, not be able to effectively communicate with the rest of what is here abusively called a "community" since these would be lacking human language
  • 3) making therefore any interbreeding as much a form of rape as bestiality is - it would in fact be a bestiality, except for the infertility and on top of that, any real human having that magic "mutation" would by interbreeding with ... anatomical humans that aren't anatomical humans because they can't have language ... be risking the offspring would not inherit the mutation from them, but the unmutated and bestial form of the gene from the other "parent" ...

Not to mention the evil involved in Adam biologically coming from a community without language:

  • 1) if he was born human among non-humans, no one was their to teach him language, he would, before sinning, have been a feral child
  • 2) or he was miraculously taught language, for instance by angels, and this would have disposed him to despise his progenitors who had no language;
  • 3) or he was only infused with a human soul later on and had (physically necessarily) memories from having been a beast in a community without language,
  • 4) or God spare him that by inducing amnesia;
  • 5) not to mention the loss of perceived and emotionally relevant biological kin necessary before he could set up a mankind with Eve, in this case.

So, the theory is not just false, if you look into the implications it is evil and involves God committing cruelty to Adam before he had sinned.

20:12 "through mating, that is through bestiality, which is a crazy part of that story"


Replace the overall Biblical story with the overall evolutionary one, and you end up with crazyness.

However, even the need to outmuscle and kill off beings from which your ancestors get their biological origin is in itself sufficiently crazy, and I suppose Nicanor and the other guy mean this would have taken place even without original sin.

Goo to you by way of the zoo—and apparently some bestiality too. How is this not heresy?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Me Exactly.

Theistic Evolution is either heresy or apostasy.

20:25 I think Nicanor Austriaco actually understands it less well than you. And so does the other guy.

In doing well, experience is source of knowledge. But in doing ill, experience is source of ignorance. Basically in Aristotle, he applies it to purely Ethical disciplines. But in so far as "concluding" is in some fashion an ethical act, it can be applied to theoretical disciplines as well.

Nicanor has sullied his soul with Evolutionism more than you have.

[added later]

Probably St. James has given you some protection against apostasy, it seems you did the camino.

[see the video: Witnessing to Marxists Feminist on The Camino /w Fr. Gregory Pine]

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