Wednesday, March 8, 2023

Some Right Wing Christians Don't Understand Eastern Europe - to Me, that Includes Vigano

Why Should I Hate Russia??

4:16 Zelensky makes some token simping for woke values, or rather for communities of states where they tend to get support.

But you make it sound as if Ukraine were kind of a gay hellhole and Russia a firmly traditional Christian country.

Last stats I looked on, Ukraine had fewer abortions per 1000 live births than either Sweden (where I'm from) or France (where I am now staying). Russia had more.

Gay marriage is not allowed in Ukraine, and gay couples are not allowed to adopt or get insemination. Sex changes are not allowed in Ukraine.

Meanwhile, in Russia, Ukrainean Byzantine Catholics do not have a legal existence, and house churches and JW's are persecuted by the state. Yeah, it was a Protestant house church I heard the story from, but you can perhaps see how Ukrainean Catholics might like the idea of using a private home if they cannot have a Church.

I asked Mearsheimer on the status of Creationism in Russia, if its liberties had gone down, like those of house churches and JWs, so far no answer.

Putin has in all official speeches involving Christianity treated Christianity as a value system, not as an actual creed with actual statements about the world, Who made it how long ago and on what conditions He allows us it. He has arguably said "Hristos voskrese" in Church, but he has never mentioned the Resurrection as either a fact or a turning point in history.

And the guy who's persecuting house churches and calling their pastors "spies" has no qualms about allowing freemasonry in Russia. Pretty late in November or perhaps October, Putin's admirers decided the "special operation" was a war against Satan, and pretending Ukraine was run by a gay maffia, but a few month earlier he was bragging about "Sarmat" as "Satan II" ...

As far as Crusades go, the last time there was such a phoney crusade against an actually Christian country, it ended in what the German crusaders called Tannenberg and Poles call Grunwald, while Lithuanians refer to the locality and battle as Zhalgiris. That was in 1410. The NEXT time the Teutonic order made any big row was by becoming Protestants in 1525. Not all of the order, but the parts stationed in the region.

"The Battle of Grunwald, Battle of Žalgiris, or First Battle of Tannenberg, was fought on 15 July 1410 during the Polish–Lithuanian–Teutonic War. The alliance of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, led respectively by King Władysław II Jagiełło (Jogaila), and Grand Duke Vytautas, decisively defeated the German Teutonic Order, led by Grand Master Ulrich von Jungingen. Most of the Teutonic Order's leadership were killed or taken prisoner."

What was that "Crusade" about?

Well, Poland-Lithuania was not forcing the remaining Pagan minority in Samogitia to convert to Christianity. Hence Ulrich von Jungingen concluded that Poles were not real Christians, were not really baptised, had no real priests and so on, and needed a real conversion by sword.

So, with all my taste for Crusaders in general, I'm not a fan of Ulrich von Jungingen. But hey, to be fair, he started the war as a Crusader. He didn't start a war to get more castles in Poland, and then feel faint about the outcome and start to call it a Crusade midway through.

4:35 You can't be dragged into court for not supporting a gay wedding in Russia OR in Ukraine. There aren't any gay weddings either country.

In Putin's Russia, you could - perhaps not as a baker, or perhaps that too, but - certainly in lots of other small businesses, according to diverse regions, be dragged to court over trying to be open during the lockdown. And unlike France, there were no handouts for compensating, the small business who were ruined were facing actual ruin.

Small business is simply not a value to Putin. He prefers big factories, where corrupt executives are happy as long as he favours them and tremble when he points out the corruption.

Dito for lesbian weddings, either country ....

5:00 I don't know how the relation is between sports coaches and religion in Russia.

In the Soviet era, the coach would have been fired. Now, he might perhaps in some places make a real success, if he invites the Russian Orthodox priest for a blessing, but he would get kicked out if it were instead a Ukrainean Orthodox priest (the ones who split from Moscow a few years ago) or if it were a Byzantine Catholic priest.

5:59 "whom the media and the oligarchs tell me I need to hate"

You are talking about how Zelensky is portrayed by Russian media and oligarchs?

In the US, Joe and Joe can get away with openly not hating Putin. What would have happened to you in Russia for openly not hating Zelensky?

6:25 In Russia, abortions are conducted in gynaecological parts of the hospitals. By the same guys who deliver other babies. Putin regularly wishes a happy new year to all state employees, including in hospitals, including both tasks of obstetricians.

Try to stop an abortion in Russia or Sweden by sidewalk counselling? Doesn't work, you are not allowed into the hospital. My mother's favourite speciality at med school was gynaecology. Why did she only practise her second best choice in hospitals after nine terms, that being geriatric medicine? Well, in Sweden, a gynaecologist in a hospital is not allowed to refuse an abortion. A geriatric intern was way less likely to be drafted into an abortion, not even likely at all. Russia has the same deal as Sweden.

Heros like Mark Houck don't exist there. If they did, they would soon end up in prison or mental hospital.

You are aware that the guys who fought Hitler did so allied with the Red Army? Or that parts of the US (Lynchburg, for instance) had eugenics? Or that the US was going through the process where Supreme Court interpreted I Amendment in a very non-originalist sense, inspired by the Christianity persecutor Clemanceau?

Would that have been a case for not fighting against Hitler? No. And I say that as a Fascist, mainly Austro-Fascist and Franquist / Carlist persuasion. Vivat Patton!

6:41 Mark Houck would in Russia have faced at the very least the same kind of consequences as Pussy Riot faced for the "Feminist Moelieben" ... the law paragraph is not about condemning blasphemy (though there is belatedly one now), but for condemning "rabulism" - disrespecting the societal structures you live in.

And probably, in Russia, Mark Houck taking along his son would have a visit from CPS.

7:36 Fighting Putin is per se not a pinch of incense.

There were Christian legions. Have you heard of the Legio Fulminatrix, forget what number? I heard the story from Richard Carrier.

A pagan author said the legion had an accompanying Egyptian magician. Christians claimed the legions were Christians and praying.

BOTH agreed that they were facing Marcomanni on the other side of the Danube and didn't even have to fight, since a heave rain defeated the Marcomanni.

8:41 "we know Zelensky's values in Ukraine"

That he has such bad values personally is possible.

They are not yet the values of the Ukraine as a society or as a state with laws.

And the society and the state with laws, not Zelensky's personal opinions, is what the Ukrainean forces are fighting to defend.

8:47 "against someone who didn't do anything to me?!!!"

So, all Christians who got in trouble in Russia are nothing to you?

9:13 NATO provoked this?

If you want to know the Russian interest in Ukraine, check out a city called Sevastopol, on Crimea. It's the largest and best naval base of the region, possibly of all the Black Sea.

Russia started to get really excited in favour or separatists suffering in Ukraine when a certain lease, leaving Russia the military access to Sevastopol, was going to expire and the new régime in Ukraine was lots less likely to let them continue the lease.

And in fact, as Mearsheimer was stating the other day, a certain time ago, NATO and Putin were friends.

11:22 If Putin wins more international influence than he has, he will not defend you against the Left.

The Left is the strong guy over your side of the Atlantic? Well, Putin's not interested in being ally of the weak guy.

If Putin is beaten, there may come a time when he "repentant" energises the Left. Either of US or of Europe. But probably not the very next day.

11:22 bis One vote of distrust about Vigano.

His views on how the war happened is basically what you are pushing and on his document he linked to an anonymous document from ... Russia.

Do you recall vaccination debates?

Pfizer and Moderna isolated certain proteins from viruses and then made these into genetically modified bacteria to get bacteria to reproduce these proteins. OR ARN for making body cells produce them. Bacteria are cultivated on petri dishes on glucose. Nothing immoral about cultivating bacteria. However, viruses are cultivated in live body cells. In this case, those of an aborted baby, a genetically modified cell line.

That abortion taint is there at the initial virus production for every new version of the vaccine, and also for viruses used to test the vaccine.

In the case of Astra Zeneca and Sputnik V, the abortion taint is there in exactly every dose, since all doses are dead viruses (if it isn't weakened viruses) and, as said, all the dead viruses are first "live" viruses and cultivated in live cells. From exactly the same abortion.

But Vigano condemned Pfizer and Moderna, while saying no bad word about Sputnik V.

Guess what Putin did? He required exactly every health care provider in all hospitals in Russia to take Sputnik V. A Christian hospital worker stating "no those vaccines were produced (indirectly) by abortion" would have been persecuted for that in Russia. Not sure if there were any. Meaning, it is possible the kind of Christianity Putin favours in Russia is a doctrinally and morally woolly headed one. A decade or a little more ago, US Christians who wanted to get abortion away were caricatured by Putin's spiritual father Kirill as "desiring Christian shariah" ...

So, I think if anything, when it comes to Russia, and Ukraine, it is Vigano who isn't really sober.

Appendix on Christian nations:

Russia Ukraine
47.4% Christianity
41% Russian Orthodoxy
6.4% Other Christian
 87.3% Christianity
38.2% No religion 11.0% No religion
6.5% Islam[b]
2.4% Others (including Buddhism[5])
5.5% Unanswered
 0.8% Others
0.9% Unanswered

See also Russia and US - Abortions where two of my complementary comments read:

Wait, perhaps the statistic is rather "per 1000 live births"
737,948 / 1,888,700 * 1000 = 391 in 2016 in Russia
623,471 / 3,945,875 * 1000 = 158 in 2016 in US

In 2018, the same type of statistics gave:

Bulgaria 380, Georgia 375, Moldova 364, Romania 359, Russia 353
Hungary and Sweden come between 350 and 300, with 327 and 317

Croatia had 67 and Poland 3

Ukraine (2018) had less than above worst 7 offenders, namely 247 abortions per 1000 live births.

Let's correct the stats for Russia, namely from "per pregnancies" to "per live births".

2016 stats as cited above give 737948 / 1888700 * 1000 = [390.71742468364] 391

2018 this was 353. But still more than 100 more than Ukraine.

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