Sunday, November 19, 2023

Answering Lofton some on the Strickland Affair

New blog on the kid: Will Bergoglio Excommunicate and Degrade Karl-Heinz Wiesemann? · Is Strickland Removed for Criticism? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Answering Lofton some on the Strickland Affair

Why Doesn't Pope Francis Just Excommunicate the German Bishops?
Reason & Theology, 19 nov. 2023

1:19 You have missed out on at least one of the factors.

In Germany it is illegal to describe yourself even as a Catholic priest (let alone bishop) if you are not in communion with Rome.

This is because Germany has some kind of concordate and this is one of the stipulations. In 1934 after the one with Hitler (I imagine there is a new one now) a Mariavite from Poland in schism with Pius XI could be jailed if calling himself a "Catholic priest" ... and last year or the one before, a Sedevacantist who had his ordination from some kind of Old Catholics, but was in communion with Roman Catholic Sedevacantists (Pope Michael II might agree with you on putting "RC" in inverted commas here) was jailed for calling himself a Roman Catholic rather than an Old Catholic priest.

This means, if Karl Heinz Wiesemann were removed (and I don't think all of the episcopate went as far as he, but he directly proposed to bless gay unions), and tried to pretend "no, I am still the bishop of Speyer" he could face time in German jail.

2:16 You are basically saying that formal schism is worse than formal heresy.

And a parallel church that started out on blessing gay unions would hardly be a very big priority to heal, since they would hardly be Christians, if they continued like that 100 years from now. And if they didn't (likely enough, even apart from the world ending, which is very likely), if the passions of the woke movement ran out its course and came to a miserable end, that schism would be very close to healing.

So, no, we cannot pretend that Popes Popes St. Celestine I, St. Leo I, St. Leo IX, St. Pius V were only excommunicating Nestorians, Monophysites, Caerularians and Protestants in the hope that excommunication would quickly heal the disorders in all concerned, and would have balked from doing that if they had foreseen these communions being still around and separate from Catholics up to this day. And since we cannot pretend that, we cannot pretend Bergoglio shares their priorities either.

2:52 400 years from now, "Christians" starting out from a hope of blessing gay unions would be more than 300 years damned on Doomsday.

God will not be fooled. Luke 18:8. It doesn't directly say Doomsday will come very soon after such a heavy loss of faith, but taken together with Matthew 28:16—20 it kind of implies that.

3:09 1) The Protestant Reformation could survive, because apart from the Catholic roots on the Christian side of its thematics, it drew on Classic Antiquity, which had worked for some centuries. Karl Heinz Wiesemann is more like hankering to the 20 years of Sodom, between when Abraham saved it and when God destroyed it, which is a much less lasting even part foundation.
2) The Lutherans of Sweden are getting drained out of Christendom insofar as they become formal non-confessionals, either Atheists or New Agers or semi-Christian freethinkers. I was shocked to hear that, 23 years after the "Church of Sweden" ceased to be state Church, only 54 % of the Swedes are members of it. The same thing would happen to Karl Heinz Wiesemann's parallel Church even quicker.

4:02 You have duly dealt with "St Peter the Aleut" and "Pius XII wanted Serbs in Croatia killed" canards?

[This last bc Michael Lofton claims to answer the Orthodox arguments against Catholicism. Is he doing so only on matters of doctrine, or does he enter history and disputes about it as well?]

Did the Apostolic Nuncio Say There is No Deposit of Faith?
Reason & Theology, 19.XI.2023

8:33 If the Deposit of Faith is probed in COUNTLESS ways, it means "the way you probe it" need not be the right or at this moment best one.
If it's the BASIS of sound development of doctrine, there can be a development of doctrine kind of hiding it, but don't complain about that, the magisterium will see to it, its a sound one ....

8:45 Sure someone could tell someone to "stop emphasising the deposit of faith" if that someone thinks there is A (single) RIGHT way to probe it, and thinks it doesn't NEED a development of doctrine added right now to get expressed.

In other words, if the person holds that the deposit of faith is a real DEPOSIT and not a kind of stream or seed or whatever, able to grow or to flow to unexpected places.

9:47 Yeah, sure, Christophe Pierre sees the value of the Deposit of Faith as long as he can treat it as a stream flowing on to unexpected riverscapes or a seed growing to unexpected shapes.

But this doesn't mean he sees the value of "emphasising it so much" especially in a way that makes it seem the deposit of faith is in fact a deposit. Which presumably is what Strickland had done.

12:50 Could the "Cardinal" have said sth like:

"stop acting as if you were the only one to believe / defend / etc the deposit of faith"

to Strickland?

It beats me why (if so) Strickland could remember that as inaccurately as "it's not what we need to emphasise" — especially if it was in the area of pastoral or reform, check out the following words by which the document you read from nearly directly allows for making the deposit of faith irrelevant to whether a pastoral reform can be accepted or not.

13:09 I think you are the one who is severely misunderstanding what you even read from, by overlooking the part Strickland would see as relevant to the case.

Stop Sharing This Fake Bishop's Material
Reason & Theology, 15 nov. 2023

Why is a bishop of the Old Roman Catholic Church (which presumably has valid material Apostolic Succession, like the Orthodox) getting more popular than some of the Novus Ordo ones?

Perhaps because people of Strickland calibre are not silenced in it.

Looked into it. It seems to be a version of Sedevacantism.

15:16 They received orders from Utrecht before Utrecht came into communion with Old Catholics. THEN they broke with Utrecht.

15:53 Bishop Meikle is far closer to being in communion with the true Pope (i e Michael II) than any Orthodox bishop.

I recall in my years in a Novus Ordo parish, the "Archbishop's Prayer School" by Anthony Bloom was being shared, no one had qualms about sharing that even if Anthony Bloom had been in schism since 1054 (OK, not personally, but his schism is that old, far older than Bishop Edward Meikle's ... if even such).

15:53 bis Speaking of "Anthony Bloom" — would you or any other Novus Ordo you know call Anthony Bloom a "fake bishop" because he was not given his metropoly by anyone you consider as Pope?

Old Roman Catholic Church : See of Caer-Glow

Bishop Meikle's views on Other Catholic Groups

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