Saturday, May 6, 2017
... My Pagan & Christian Testimony to The White Christ & His Church
If I regularly used captions, this one would have : no, I am not going Pagan, still not worshipping Odin, and won't be doing so.
In that case you may wonder why I spoke about "Pagan and Christian" testimony? Well, I was a Pagan and Evolution believer (but not Atheist) up to age nine, mostly. I was also technically Pagan when at age 13 (see "ditto, ditto" remark) I was a Tolkien fan (not mentioned by man in video, but presumable for him as well), much into runes, making constructed languages which were not very advanced.
My Christian Testimony and the Norse Gods
The Heathen Voice
2:10 "I was very devout"
I totally believe you!
I think I may have remained a Christian due to NOT opting for being very devout.
Perhaps also due to being raised quasi agnostic evolution and big bang believer before getting a Christian education later on by my ma.
If I may say so without sounding psychoanalytitical, could it be your opting out of Christianity has sth to do with feeling sth queezy about being very devout, and looking for a way out of it?
2:58 Hej, du! Jag är svensk!
I became Christian when having opportunity to with mother go to US and return to Austria, after a stay in Sweden.
4:27 Look here, [in my case, in my family] the worst yelling or threatening of meanness (sts backed up by mean acts) was by a non-Christian, very up to date (for her generation and class) Swedish family member.
Would you want me to conclude from this that Swedish secularists are not peaceful? Well, that would hardly fit your experience, would it?
6:07 "not 'in nine worlds' and 'a world tree connecting all these together', yeah, whatever"
But the Pagans or a certain class of their priesthood very clearly did believe in that, just as Hindoos tend to believe in a flat Earth on the back of four elephants on top of a turtle - there really ARE Hindoos who will defend Vedic flat earth astronomy today.
It sounds like your Paganism is as Modernist or Liberal as the kind of Christianity I rejected when meeting it after returning to Sweden. A bit like "let's leave out the inconvenient stuff".
I never liked that, and it never was proportional to my devotion or lack of it. I didn't like it any more when I was reading (in a boarding school I should not have gone to) Casanova than when I was praying three Our Father each day with Bible studies.
6:28 If you go to Norse Pagan morals, you can hardly pass by Havamal - does it strike you as similar to Proverbs?
To me it does.
7:16 I don't believe for a moment, and was never told, since I studied for myself, that Nordic beliefs CENTRED on the nine sacrifices of male both men and other kinds to Odin in the one surrounding of Old Uppsala every nine years.
My problem is that it very clearly and markedly condoned these things - a bit like some have a problem with Catholic Christianity (I am a Catholic) about Inquisition and Crusades. You cannot say Pope Urban II did not say "Deus vult" and Christians believed it for centuries - and similarily you cannot say there were no Pagan priests who said Odin required these things, and people believed that for centuries.
To some, Crusades is worse than Human Sacrifice, to me it is the other way round.
Note, Human Sacrifice was far more prevalent, therefore far more central, to Aztecs than to Peruvians, and even to Peruvians than to Swedes.
Some have claimed the Viking raids were a revenge for the cutting down of Irminsul in the 8th C. - I consider Crusades as better motivated than Viking raids, if you compare what Muslims did to Christians over centuries after with how quickly the Asatru of Saxony disappeared and let peaceful relations prevail again from Christian to Pagan neighbours.
7:32 No, while I do think any man who worships Odin or Varuna or Krishna or Romulus is in fact worshipping the devil, I also think the diabolic part is much less apparent outside a Christian analysis of ultimate facts, much less apparent as appearances (except those pesky nine males offered nine years apart from each other), than in for instance Molochism.
If for instance Sikhs are in fact worshipping the devil, it is not because they have a fullfledged mentality of Satanists, it is because compromise about truth is ultimately diabolic.
A bit like, for instance, Modernist "Christians" are also on some plane diabolic, due to compromise.
7:53 So, honour and respect are very good morals?
I think some gangster rappers in the 'hood would possibly agree.
One should be just, even if one derives no earthly honour, not even normal respect, from being so.
7:57 "And hospitality" - true enough. Confer Matthew 25:32 and following verses, sth which Protestants are not always totally bright on.
"and working hard" - sounds like Kantian or Calvinist work ethic.
Roman Pagans did not divinise "labor" and Roman Catholics while respecting it more (Christ was a carpenter, after all) were also great believers in "otium", at least when directed to God.
8:51 Crusades, Inquisitions ... yes, what about them?
I am a history buff too, and rejected Protestantism over Reformation, it was so similar to French and Russian Revolutions, which I had already hated for years.
8:53 The Christianisation of Europe?
Apart from Saxony (larger sense, including Thuringia etc, I suppose), Prussia, Estonia, Livonia and Curonia, all European nations I know were voluntarily Christianised.
Some of them (Roman Empire, England after Anglo-Saxon repaganisation, Sweden, Norway) with internal strife, some others very peacefully and like a picnic (Ireland, Iceland if you know Njáls saga, Bavaria, Poland).
9:06 "things like what missionaries did to the indigenous American people"
Which ones of them? Spanish, French or English/American ones?
These are not the same.
Also, Spanish is very variegated.
9:09 "when the - quote - New World was discovered"
But the démise of the Cuban tribes was presumably due to absence of missionaries, presence of only seamen and warriors (well, OK, I think some missionaries had been left behind and massacred between I and II Voyage of Columbus).
9:49 "what it can say is that the Bible is stained in the blood of millions and millions and millions of innocent men, women and children..."
When it comes to men, innocent?
When it comes to anyone, millions?
The numbers seem taken from Black Legend (Elisabethan and similar propaganda against Spaniards), and the qualification "innocent" leaves out that Incas and Aztec rulers were in fact sacrificing men - but perhaps you have no problem with that?
10:31 - does Neil Oliver's lecture - the one you heard - exist on youtube?
I'd love to comment on it!
10:56 I have a connexion to WW-II through my grandfather.
On one occasion, Swedish army was mobilised. We never went to war for or against Hitler, but we were mobilised.
My gramp got out of the military before it was all over : his war time place was his peace time place, namely distilling the vodka now known (but back then not LBTQG) as Absolut.
And the other men hoorraed for him and lifted him on their shoulders as he ceremonially left the regiment.
Vivat vinum and down with AA!
11:18 Gramp - Gustav Georg. GGramp Hans Petter. GGGramp Petter - but GGGGramp, I don't know.
Petter moved from Christianstad to Malmö, which is why ma lost track.
However, hailing from Christianstad makes me a non-fan of Gustavus Adolphus. See here:
Vä on Wickipeejuh
Or perhaps you can even read the Swedish version:
Vä på Vickipedia
No big fan of the Champion of Protestants in Thirty Years War, no not I!
11:58 Northern Germany near Denmark?
That is where Anglo-Saxons came from, whom later St Augustine of Canterbury christianised without bloodshed (for the tribes he reached).
That is also where Secularist Protestant Otto von Bismarck showed himself a total fuck up both against Denmark and against Austria in 1860's.
Sorry for expression, but the more I learn of Bismarck, the less I tend to like him, even if Karl May admired him.
12:19 Ditto, ditto! [see above for reference in video!]
Have you checked out how Christian Younger Futhark was?
You find a rune stone near a bridge, where it basically says the widow isn't charging ferry money, but prayers for the soul of her deceased husband. In Younger Futhark runes.
12:37 Were your languages as silly as Nevbosh?
13:03 The gods?
Sure it was neither God nor devil, nor angel nor elf?
13:54 The Pagan gods speak ten thousand times louder?
Perhaps because God knows how to whisper (see story of Elijah) and some other powers are not quite as apt.
14:15 But you do find households torn apart from other things, both in Njáls saga (among Christians, perhaps, but ones recently Pagan) and in the family of Rolf Kraki - not to mention the Heathobards.
Households torn apart for religion are typical for religious transition times and areas, not for one particular religion rather than the others.
OK, in one sense Christianity DOES encourage households torn apart: St Barbara, St Francis, St Clare, St Thomas Aquinas ... all of them had defied their fathers.
This is another name for freedom.
15:21 There are religions out there that support science, you said?
Sure, if by science you mean Evolution incl. Abiogenesis, the modern Abiogenesis myth is of course very close to the Abiogenesis myth about Niflheim and Muspelheim.
And the modern Evolution myth is very close to Hindoo and Buddhist and Jainist myths of cosmic and individual Evolution.
In that sense, Christianity (with variants ranging to Judaism, Islam possibly Sikhism) is the only religion which does not support the Abiogenesis and Evolution myths you call science. All Paganisms I know of support one or other. Even Shintoism supports some Cosmic evolution insofar as sun goddess Amaterasu descends from earlier cosmic kami reaching back to three original kami (which might be a hint at the Blessed Trinity, except they were not acting as one creator in relation to Amaterasu).
If you know one Paganism which very much does NOT support Evolution in any shape or form, please tell me!
15:28 Sure, Odinism does not have the history that Christianity does.
Odin is supposed to have come to Uppsala around the time of Ceasar, if not earlier, and you don't find Odin worship evidenced archaeologically till centuries later.
A generation after Caesar, you still find Germanic peoples doing the previous Norse religion, Nerthus worship (which was arguably worse, as far as human sacrifice was concerned).
And Odinism has not lasted uninterrupted and openly to Ragnarok or even our own day, while Christianity has lasted uninterrupted and openly, if not yet to Doomsday, at least to our day.
I already compared Odinist "crusades" of Viking raid type for Irminsul unfavourably against Christian Crusades against Muslims.
We agree, I prefer the Catholic history to the Odinist one!
[Agree on religions not being same, not on which one is good.]
15:32 There is one good religion, because there is one true religion : Catholic Christianity.
15:34 And, yes, it is perfect too. That is what I meant with "one good".