Tuesday, May 16, 2017

... on "sale of Indulgences" canard

How much has the Roman Catholic Church received for the sales of indulgences?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Answered 41m ago
Nothing at all, since indulgences are not sold.

The Protestant accusation of “selling indulgences” originally was an exaggerated strawman argument against the accepted and real practise of indulgences, specifically those for giving certain alms, in the historic case of Luther’s protest, alms given to rebuilding the Basilica of St Peter.

Does this answer surprise you?

If yes, what was the religious or non-religious outlook of your teacher in history? It would be fun to know.

Leonidas Pereira
4m ago
When i learnt about Protestant Reform in school, my teacher (he.. well, he’s a leftist, even tho he denys it real hard.) told us that the sell of indulgences (Like a piece of cloth that Jesus wore in the cross, or a piece of the cross, etc) was constant, and to take money from the poor. Not only that, but high positions in the catholic church were also sold to nobles for money.

I would really like to read more about it from an a: A) Catholic point of view, instead of an atheist/protestant. and B) Neutral point of view, since i always thought there was more to the story than they let out, and that Lutero wasn’t as nearly as much of a good guy as they make him see.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
2m ago
"the sell of indulgences (Like a piece of cloth that Jesus wore in the cross, or a piece of the cross, etc)"

Neither indulgences nor relics - what you defined was relics! - could technically be sold.

In cases when a rich person wanted to acquire these, he was probably doing some favour in return, but technically at least it could not be a sum of money in payment.

A poor person would not usually be given as important a relic as a piece of the Holy Cross, since he would not have anywhere he could preserve it.

Relics and medallions are sacramentals, and I have, as a poor man, been given sacramentals (miraculous medallions, rosaries), but never a piece of the Holy Cross, the proper place for such a relic is either in a Church or in the chapel of someone who can afford having a chapel in his home, for instance a King.

It is therefore utter rubbish to pretend that poor people were racketted to pay money for either relics or other sacramentals.

Indulgences are another thing. It is a deal you make with God, where your "payment" is a good act of a pre-defined type. Like praying a full fifteen mysteries of the Rosary in Church, after Confession and Communion and for the Holy Father's intentions. Unlike the alms to rebuilding St Peter, this obviously costs no money.

It takes time though. If anything, one can argue rich people supported Reformation doing away with this, because they did not like poor people having so much free time.

Another indulgence was going in a pilgrimage to St James. Also done to ask favours, including miracles. Suppose you were an employer, your employee's uncle who had lived badly had just died and he said "I want to go to Santiago to pray for his soul", would you as an employer be happy? You would need to get another man, and when he came back he would need to look for another job.

On the other hand, if he was not ashamed of begging after his savings were spent, he was getting a great vacation for low budget, and basically no one could stop him.

Luther considered pilgrimages as "an excuse for laziness".

"Not only that, but high positions in the catholic church were also sold to nobles for money."

This is called simony, it is a great sin, it happened.

It is not a Catholic doctrine that a Pope has the right to sell papacy after his death or place as archbishop of Milan or whatever to anyone who paid, it is only a Catholic doctrine that a Pope who did that would be going to Hell unless he repented, but the place would still be validly filled.

Opponents of papacy were overdoing both the scale of simony and in some cases (heretical) the importance such a sale had for validity of the position being filled.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
right now
Your answer does not quite surprise me.

Marx was a Protestant, and Marxism tends to take over Protestant criticism of Catholicism rather much unquestioned.

Leonidas Pereira
18m ago
So i supose that the part where such relics were sold as indulgences are fabricated, correct? Also, thanks for taking your time to answer me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Right Now
No, not fabricated, just bungled. You are welcome, and thank you for asking.

Leonidas Pereira
Thank you for taking your time to answer me

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You are welcome!

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