Friday, May 19, 2017

... on Radical Protestant Anticatholicism and Biblical Prophecy, Specifically 7 D A Version

Antichrist revealed. Repeat antichrist revealed.
Russell McCann

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Q answered
10 horns and 3 horns.

Can you give a list of 10 successor states to Rome all existing at same time, three of which are overcome by Papacy while the other seven remain the same?

[Answered, and his answer answered by me, in below dialogue, see further down.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Q & C not answered
in detail.

3:58 "They are called the Dark Ages because of the persecution"

Normally, Dark Ages refer to, if anything, the time between Romulus Augustulus and, first Charlemagne, then 1033, beginning of Reconquest, due to military losses of Christendom.

If you pretend Catholic Church was at that time "persecuting" the "saints", care to tell me who those saints were?

Can you how ANY continuity, century for century, between undoubted Christians and the sects persecuted by Catholics, like, later on, Albigensians (whom I don't consider as Christians) or Waldensians (whom I consider as very confused Christians and at least doing evil in connection with Albigensians, later not pesecuted very much)?

4:49 Ezechiel 4:6 b ... a day for a year, yea, a day for a year I have appointed to thee. Refers to Ezechiel fasting for a may days as a certain number of years in that prophecy, it is not a general clue to all prophecy, therefore not to the 1260 days either. They are days, NOT years.

5:04 "All known earth was consumed by this power"? When that? UNO 1948? Definitely NOT Middle Ages, ANY power.

5:10 Exists to the end - so does the Church, but it ALSO exists all centuries between Ascension Day and Doomsday. Mt 28:16-20.

6:26 [See dialogue below.]

6:51 Midnight to midnight a day in Gregorian?

Just insofar as it succeeds Julian, invented by Julius Caesar. WELL before Papacy (even if they verbally have one title in common).

Just mentioning the exact innovation of Gregory XIII in 1583.

Instead of leap years strictly one in four, from then on, the centurial years (divisible by four) are only leap years when divisible by 400.

Plus, 1583 lacked 10 days.* 355 instead of 365, which is the length of a Muslim year, sometimes.

That is why the Orthodox rejected it.

All the rest is simply Julian calendar, inherited from Romans.

* St Theresa of Avila died the night between 4th and 15th of October - those were the days skipped that year.

Missed that Sunday ecclesiastically begins at 18:00 on Saturday, or about.

7:01 Check out Acts on 1st Day of the Week.

7:08 In ecclesiastic Latin, as well as several Romance languages and Greek, "Sunday" is NOT called dies solis, etc, but dies Dominica. Lord's Day.

In Germanic languages we often refer to it a Sun's day, but Germanic Paganism had no sun worship.

8:00 All the signs from Daniel seven - make a checklist, instead of a speech!

8:46 You know, Reformers were not Sabbatarians.

When Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans all worship on Sundays, it is NOT for admiration of Papacy! Goes for Baptists and Pentecostals even more.

I might add here, while Jesuits made schools, like so many other bodies, like Benedictines, like Franciscans, like Dominicans, when it comes to elementary schools for poor children, like Ursulines, you would be hard put to prove they had taken over all other schools there are.

9:44 538 AD - 1798 AD?

You have a problem.

538 AD the council you are thinking of was a local/regional council, it did not give the Catholic Church more power than it had before, it did not introduce Sunday worship, it was not obliging Catholics all over the world as per its own text.

French wiki specifies:

7 mai, concile d’Orléans : l'Église catholique interdit le travail des champs le dimanche et défend aux clercs de pratiquer l’usure

In other words, any Catholic in all the dioceses of Orléans and surrounding dioceses which participated cannot do field work on Sunday.

A Jew who believed the Sabbath was still that of the Old Covenant, would not have been and was not punished for doing work in his home, or even for working in his business, on Sunday - as long as the business work did not involve making Christians work in the field on said Sunday.

So, it cannot have been the mark of the beast.

Also, supposing it were true Jews could not have done business on Sundays, not have shops open, etc, which is arguably at least false when they lived in Jewries, like that of Carpentras, the commandment did not specify "six days thou shalt work in thy business and on the seventh thou shalt do your work at home " but limited ALL work to the six days. Meaning, if a Jew not living in a Jewry was forbidden to have shop open on Sundays, he would not be sinning (against his understanding of the law) by washing clothes etc. Also, Jews at least in certain countries have a habit of picknicking on Sundays : walking and carrying baskets with food and plates also counts as work they cannot do on the Sabbath.

At most, the Jew would be disadvantaged if he had Christian colleagues in same business.

So, does not fulfil the part of neither buying nor selling without taking the mark of the beast.

9:53 You have another problem too.

Napoleon Bonaparte capturing Pius VI does not constitute a lethal wound to the head. He dies, in captivity, but not of wounds, in 1799, one year too late for your timeframe.

Plus, in 538 AD, new year was arguably already and still on March 25, meaning the capturing of Pius VI and dissulution of Papal states falls within what they back then would have considered as still 1797.

Check the date, here:

17 février : les émissaires du Directoire donnent l'ordre à Pie VI de partir sous deux jours. Il part dans la nuit du 19 au 20 février24. Les États pontificaux sont remplacés par la république romaine.

9:57 The deadly wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini?

As to Papal States, they were not restored by Mussolini. He even specified the Vatican State was a new state.

We are no longer speaking of a Hypothetical Donation of Constantine or a tangible (dsiputed as to how relevant) donation by Pipin, we are dealing with Donation of Mussolini. And we can actually start counting "kings" - Popes being also kings of that state - from then on :

Pius XI 1
Pius XII 2
John XXIII 3
Paul VI 4
John Paul I 5
John Paul II 6
Benedict XVI 7 (2005 - 2013, 8 years)
Francis 8 (and one of the seven?)

But whatever incomplete healing Mussolini did was of a wound inflicted in 1870. Not in 1798.


610 is the year in which Phocas was replaced by Heraclius and in which Mohammed started preaching.

It is also the year in which Jews made a rebellion in Antioch, killing its Patriarch.

But not a year in which Roman Church was persecuted.

Aventicum in Switzerland was probably abandoned this year after a sacking. Checking 1870:

Would you say that the Roman Amphitheatre was receiving a mortal wound in 610 and that it was healed by opening of the Opera Comique in London? Er, of course the 1260 days or years are not what it takes to heal the wound, so that would be irrelevant.

If you wanted to argue about Catholicism getting mortal wounds ... Jesuits are disbanded in 1773.*


Vigor becomes bishop of Bayeux. He opposes paganism and founds a monastery later known as Saint-Vigor-le-Grand (Normandy).

You consider Jesuit order as continuation of monastery of Bayeux?

* Had to look it up:

10:19 "in the Temple of God"

Note that there are CATHOLIC, fully Papist, commenters who consider an Antipope abusing the Vatican would fulfill that prophecy!

[2 Thessalonians 2:4]

Challoner comments:

[4] "In the temple": Either that of Jerusalem which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian church, which he will pervert to his own worship: as Mahomet has done by the churches of the east.

And others have said : if he rebuilt the Temple of Jerusalem, it would be his temple, not God's. So, it must be a Catholic Church.

See more in Haydock:

11:56 While Beast system is fairly certainly BOTH ecclesiastic AND political ("two horns"), this may be not its dissimilary from Church of God and the nations converted, but its competition and similarity ("like a lamb"), while something else ("but spoke like a dragon") is the real difference.

I take it Christendom is like Beast system, not because they are same, but precisely because they are different, but not different categories of societal type.

Another indication that "the saints" are also political and ecclesiastic is :

1 100% "I beheld, and lo, that horn made war against the saints, and prevailed over them," [Daniel 7:21]

2 3% "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation." [Apocalypse (Revelation) 13:7]

How did Antichrist overcome them? Spiritually? No, the saints fight on and are spiritually victorious (those who do not apostasise) during the tribulation which follows. So, he beat them in a military way, and this means they were up to then having a military, i e they were also political as well as ecclesiastic.

Numbers and percentages refer to a search in the Bible online.

between us

A collective of all of them?

No, that is NOT in Reveation.

A false Pope can be the real Antichrist, or real false Prophet (while Beast would be another person). But all of them, no. We are not seeing a collective in either Daniel or Revelation, when talking of that man.

Russell McCann
A beast is a king or kingdom. Daniel 7:17

As for the rest of my points you listened you disagree that fine.

But tell me does the 70 week prophecy mean 70 weeks or 490 years?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I think that one specifies 490 years as in "weeks of years" - a legal entity in Mosaic law, since involved in Sabbatical years.

This also is not a general warrant to take days for years everywhere in prophecy.

Daniel 7:17 is also not saying that all beasts are kingdoms, or, if they are, a kingdom involves some kind of king. Broad sense, could be other title. There are many European titles which translate to malak (is that king or did I confuse with angel?) in Hebrew.

But Daniel 7:17 is not saying that.

The four kingdoms are bestial figures, all of which reappear in the one beast of Apocalypse - except the eagle's wings, which do not belong to it (a good omen to Roman Empire, since it is called Eagle : note that Fourth Beast was the beast behind Antiochus IV Epiphanes back when Rome was a Republic and that HRE with eagles cannot quite equate with the Senate to whom Epiphanes made allegiance).

This means that the beast of Apocalypse will be a very shortlived combined kingdom, and Antichrist will be its ruler.

Unless you prefer to say, "it had two horns like a lamb" means it has a double rulership, "Pope and Emperor" like real Christendom - except the composite beast is not restoring that one.

Russell McCann
Franks, Huns, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians

[In answer to above first question]

Russell McCann
The 70 week prophecy gave the exact date when Jesus was to be on this earth. It was 483 years exactly from the going forth to build the Temple and wall of Jerusalem to his baptism. Then in the next 7 years he was cutoff for our sakes. Do you believe in Jesus and that he is the savior?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I certainly DO believe Jesus Christ is Our Saviour and I certainly DO believe the 70 weeks are year weeks.

I do not believe this warrants a general 1 day = 1 week any more than II Peter 3:8 warrants a general 1 day = 1 thousand or million years in Genesis 1.

Now, the ten horns ...

"Franks, Huns, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, Anglo-Saxons, Suevi, Vandals, and Burgundians"

Where are Britons (Wales, Cornwall, Bretagne) and Byzantines (who ruled in Italy part of the time)?

At what exact date did all of these ten exist together, and at what exact date only seven of above, while 3 had gone down to exactly the papacy?

Are you aware that while Anglo-Saxons are one nation and could be one beast, there were at least seven kingdoms at first, beside the British and Pictish and Irish ones?

Deira, Bernicia, Mercia, East Anglia, Wessex, Essex and Kent.

Beside : Cornwall, Wales, Strathclyde and Cumbria. I think both Strathclyde and Cumbria were south of Hadrian's wall, at least Cumbria was.

And what about pockets of Roman power under Catholic bishops or hermits, like, obviously, Rome under Popes, Noreia under St Severine, Mid modern France (with Paris and Rheims) under St Remigius taking over after Syagrius, who was kind of a King Arthur figure in Gaul?

Are you aware that Huns were beaten by an alliance of Romans, Bretons, Franks and Visigoths, and while Ostrogoths were technically beaten with them (as were the Heruli), they lingered on till beaten by Lombards?

So, what years are you speaking of when it comes to 3 horns being uprooted?

If you mean all three I mentioned lost at least independence, so did Burgundians, while Vandals simply got lost - after persecuting Catholics in North Africa nearly up to the Muslim Conquest.

Russell McCann
Heruli, vandals, ostrogoths were all eliminated before 538AD

Hans-Georg Lundahl
So were the Huns. Heruli were eliminated along with Huns.

Makes 4 horns, not just three eliminated before 538 AD.

Actually, some Heruli survived. On the other hand, perhaps Byzantium was more active than Vatican in uprooting the other three.

Russell McCann
So you want there to be a future antichrist instead of excepting to one that is.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
It would be nice if Antichrist were 100 years after I died, but I think Bergoglio is probably false prophet and Putin probably Beast.

ASCII ties them to 666.*

Also, Bergoglio has had access to the most eminent Temple of God on Earth since 2013, and Putin is heading a bear power, one of the beasts of Daniel, which bear power "Russia" shares territory with the ancient bear power in Daniel's time, "Persia".

So, we might well be heading for the tribulation, some time soon.

But that if they do not repent. And, Bergoglio as FP is because he is an Antipope, not because he is a Pope.

As to taking out of 3 horns, that is not yet.

* Do you want the details?

Russell McCann
My friend there is no tribulation to come it happened during to time period as stated before. I ask you to interpret the 2300 day prophecy and how does it work in a 7 year tribulation? I will answer now it doesn't.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
2300 day prophecy?

As in TWO thousand 300 days?

I can't recall that one, but that would be about 6.3 years, more than 6 years and 3 months.

Daniel 8?

Russell McCann
Yes Daniel 8. This prophecy states that the little horn will be around for a substantial period of time. Find the start date for that prophecy, hint it is the same start date as the 70 week prophecy. Once you discover the truth of that prophecy all other prophecy makes sense.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
There was a previous preliminary fulfilment of Little Horn in Antiochus - who defiled the Temple in Jerusalem 6 years and some months before it was resanctified by Maccabees.

Russell McCann
That has nothing to do with that prophecy. Checkout this site and compare to the bible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"The 2300-day prophecy, of which the 70-week prophecy is a small part"

Why so? How do they prove it?

"John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and Isaac Newton all connect the 70th week with the Messiah."

So do Catholic commenters.

But they do not connect 2300 days prophecy to 2300 years!

Russell McCann
Just refer to the link

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I was referring to the link, and you are not telling me I can't refer to Catholic commenters as well.

Russell McCann
The catholic system is the beast of revelation why would they ever tell the truth. The teachings will always lead astray.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
First you tell us all you hold no one accountable, now you tell me every Catholic commenter is accountable for lying about the Bible ... how do you square that?

Russell McCann
To those that write the propaganda they will answer for their deception. What else do you want? Go research on your own make a video and put it out for peer review. I stand by my video and if you take offense tough.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"To those that write the propaganda they will answer for their deception. "

Come ON!

You are basically saying without even looking at Catholic commentaries, that every single commenter of the Bible who was Catholic was a deceiver!

And after that you have the stomach to say you "hold no one accountable"?

Have you heard of consistency?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Go research on your own"

Did, hence my Catholic conversion.

"make a video"

I'll prefer a blog post linking to your video - with my answers.

"and put it out for peer review."

Will be doing so in a moment.

Update : after publishing this, I shared the link to here on top of his comment section./HGL

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