Thursday, October 1, 2020

Answering Asaph Vapor


Answering Dr. John Barnett: on Catholic Oral Tradition · his "7 Reasons Roman Catholicism is Wrong" · on "Origin of the Catholic Church" or on what happened with Constantine

Answering "Asaph Vapor": Answering Asaph Vapor · Continuing the Answer to Asaph Vapor · Asaph Vapor's long answer, part I · On Papacy and Apostolic Succession to Asaph Vapor · Answering Asaph Vapor on Blessed Virgin Mary and Church · On Eucharist, Confession and some Other Matters, to Asaph Vapor · Asaph Vapor refuted some more

This is under comment I on this post: Answering Dr. John Barnett on "Origin of the Catholic Church" or on what happend with Constantine

Hans-Georg Lundahl
[as already previous]
0:12 - 0:23 "historically the Nicolaitans were the ones that believes that the clergy were elevated and had power and the laity the people had no power"

I'd like to know exactly from what historical source you have this.

This "fact" is not mentioned in Apocalypse where it is mentioned that Christ hated their deeds.

"which is the background for Roman Catholicism"

Except, if that were true, Catholics would not be Nicolaitans.

Sure, we believe laity have power only to make two sacraments happen, baptism and matrimony.

All other five, including Eucharist which is the holiest one, depend on clergy. AND this clergy is in its beginning shown in the Gospels where Christ choses 72, then 12, then St Peter.

However, laity have a lot of powers even if they can't consecrate bread and wine or absolve sinners. We can pray, and we can, as I do, defend the Catholic truth.

Asaph Vapor
Roman Catholic Cult the Anti Christ Apostate (Counterfeit) Church
Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), who was the last of the four original Doctors of the Church and who became known as Saint Gregory, at the end of the ancient church period, said that such a church teaching came from the spirit of antichrist. He wrote, “I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself universal bishop or desires to be so called is in his pride a forerunner of antichrist.”

Rev 17-18, 2 Thes 2:3-4.
BIBLE says this Anti Christ Apostate Church system consists of the AntiChrist sitting in the temple.
1 Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 📝 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

1. Only RCC has a seat for its “supreme leader”. RCC called it Seat of Peter. Originally Seat of Jupiter or seat of satan. RCC called statue of Jupiter statue of Peter. 2 The 2:3-4

2. Only RCC has a "supreme leader" claiming to rule over all Christendom.

3. Only RCC has this "leader" who sits on this seat in the temple. 2 The 2:3-4

4. Only RCC has this temple. RCC resurrected OT priesthood, altar and sacrifice. Only RCC has this temple. No other Christianity has a temple. 2 The 2:3-4

5. Only in RCC we have a guy who calls himself vicar of Christ aka replacement of Christ, replacement of GOD HIMSELF!! BIBLE is clear this person will call himself god!! 2 The 2:3-4

6. BIBLE says this AntiChrist Apostate Church had kings "bowing" to him and in cahoot with it. Only RCC has that. Rev 17-18

7. BIBLE says this Apostate church has clergies wearing scarlet and purples. With golden cup. RCC has it all. Rev 17-18

8. BIBLE says this Apostate Church has demons. Only RCC has so much demons. Only RCC exalts false Mary as Queen (in OT queen of heaven is a demoness worshipped by pagans) and made all its dead Catholics patron saints of health, wealth, fertility, … Rev 17-18

~~~~~~~~~~~~
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition ,
2Th 2:4 📝 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most people are surprised to learn that the first individual to identify the papal office as antichrist was a pope!
Yes, Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), who was the last of the four original Doctors of the Church and who became known as Saint Gregory, at the end of the ancient church period, said that such a church teaching came from the spirit of antichrist. He wrote, “I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself universal bishop or desires to be so called is in his pride a fore runner of antichrist.”
Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Asaph Vapor It so happens:

1) the Pope does not have "universal" or "ecumenic" bishop as his title
2) while he is bishop above other bishops, he does not replace them.

For instance, the Pope of Alexandria in a sense does, the chrism with which a bishop in Addis Abeba confirms was blessed by the Pope of Alexandria last Maundy THursday, not by himself.

In Roman Catholicism, each bishop blesses the chrism on Maundy Thursday for his own see, and no other see borrows, unless perhaps prevented from the Maundy Thursday chrismal Mass that year.

There are several other indications on how in RC each bishop is in a sense on his own.

How many men are necessary for the survival of the Church? One bishop is enough, it is not necessary he be the Pope (otherwise the Church would be in big trouble each sedevacancy, between the death of one Pope and the accession of the next one).

Other points:

//Only RCC has a seat for its “supreme leader”. RCC called it Seat of Peter.//

False. Copts, Armenians and Nestorians have all supreme leaders that resemble Popes (I mentioned Pope of Alexandria for Copts). Ecumenical patriarch in EOC does so to a smaller degree.

// Originally Seat of Jupiter or seat of satan. //

You are wrong on the history, each bishop has a seat (episcopal seat resembling either a cathedra - lean chair - or a sella curulis, foldchair) and the pope of Alexandria (three of them : Copts, Orthodox, Catholic Uniates) heads the seat of St. Mark.

// RCC called statue of Jupiter statue of Peter. 2 The 2:3-4 //

The statue of Jupiter you think of is actually a statue of Christ - after exorcisms were made and attributes changed (exit lightning bolt, intro fingers in position of blessing and in other hand a large Gospel codex). At least that is one current explanation of this statue.

Points 2 and 3 already dealt with along point 1. Here is to 4:

// 4. Only RCC has this temple. RCC resurrected OT priesthood, altar and sacrifice. Only RCC has this temple. //

Every non-Protestant Church has.

Roman Catholic.
Eastern Orthodox.
Coptic Tawheedo
Armenian Apostolic
Assyrian Church of the East.

All of them consider Holy Mass as a sacrifice.

All of them have monarchic bishops, and except EO one bishop more or less monarchic over other bishops.

All of them have seats of bishops in the temples.

A Protestant type of Church is a mirage for Apostolic age and pre-Constantine age with you and nowhere in sight for centuries between Constantine and c. 1000 (pre-cursors of Waldensians, like Petrobrussians).

// 5. Only in RCC we have a guy who calls himself vicar of Christ aka replacement of Christ, replacement of GOD HIMSELF!! BIBLE is clear this person will call himself god!! 2 The 2:3-4 //

EO would say each local bishop is vicar of Christ, some Anglican High Churchmen would agree (Newman before he converted, for instance).

But for successors of St. Peter, we have Christ's words he is vicar.

And there is a difference between vicar of God and pretending to be God in person.

II Thess is speaking of some end times abomination (it could be Antipopes "Paul VI" and "John Paul II" claiming each man is somehow united to God by the incarnation), not an ongoing concern over centuries.

// 6. BIBLE says this AntiChrist Apostate Church had kings "bowing" to him and in cahoot with it. Only RCC has that. Rev 17-18

7. BIBLE says this Apostate church has clergies wearing scarlet and purples. With golden cup. RCC has it all. Rev 17-18 //

There is or will be an end times abhomination plagiarising the real Catholic Church.

In RC liturgic colours, purple is the colour of passion, scarlet of martyrdom, black of mourning ... now Apoc also says the harlot will say "I am not a widow".

Real RC liturgy wears black on Good Friday - the birthday of the Church, who was Born a Widow and wears black on her birthday.

Some (including Novus Ordo "Catholics") would have purple or scarlet on Good Friday. Or both.

@Asaph Vapor and your final point:

// 8. BIBLE says this Apostate Church has demons. Only RCC has so much demons. Only RCC exalts false Mary as Queen (in OT queen of heaven is a demoness worshipped by pagans) and made all its dead Catholics patron saints of health, wealth, fertility, … Rev 17-18 //

What you call demons would be recognised as saints by not just RCC, but also EOC Church, also Copts, Armenians, Assyrians.

Each would consider the Blessed Virgin is taken up to heaven (I checked with Assyrians, I know for EOC, where I am a revert from) and is praying for us, and where Her Son is King, She is Queen.

Each would also consider the souls of the martyrs are praying in heaven, as we also have in Apocalypse 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

Unlike end times abhominations on earth, these things in heaven are ongoing through out Church history.

For the taking up of the mother of the King ruling with a sceptre of iron, mother of Christ, of God in the flesh, see Apocalypse 12.

Asaph Vapor
@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
1) the Pope does not have "universal" or "ecumenic" bishop as his title

ME:
WHo are you lying?
607 AD: Boniface III dies on 19 February, shortly after claiming to be pope of the world. It is interesting that the first eastern leader (John IV) to proclaim himself as "universal bishop" and the first western (Boniface III) leader, to do the same, died within 12 months of claiming to be the "universal bishop". Was God sending a message here?

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
//Only RCC has a seat for its “supreme leader”. RCC called it Seat of Peter.//

False. Copts, Armenians and Nestorians have all supreme leaders that resemble Popes (I mentioned Pope of Alexandria for Copts). Ecumenical patriarch in EOC does so to a smaller degree.

// Originally Seat of Jupiter or seat of satan. //

You are wrong on the history, each bishop has a seat (episcopal seat resembling either a cathedra - lean chair - or a sella curulis, foldchair) and the pope of Alexandria (three of them : Copts, Orthodox, Catholic Uniates) heads the seat of St. Mark.

ME:
Thank you for proving my point. Before AD1054 Ortho RCC were all one.
So there is really a seat.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
4. Only RCC has this temple. RCC resurrected OT priesthood, altar and sacrifice. Only RCC has this temple. //

Every non-Protestant Church has.
Roman Catholic.
Eastern Orthodox.
Coptic Tawheedo
Armenian Apostolic
Assyrian Church of the East.

All of them consider Holy Mass as a sacrifice.
All of them have monarchic bishops, and except EO one bishop more or less monarchic over other bishops.
All of them have seats of bishops in the temples.
A Protestant type of Church is a mirage for Apostolic age and pre-Constantine age with you and nowhere in sight for centuries between Constantine and c. 1000 (pre-cursors of Waldensians, like Petrobrussians)

ME:
Thank you for telling me all are unbiblical then.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
There is or will be an end times abhomination plagiarising the real Catholic Church.
In RC liturgic colours, purple is the colour of passion, scarlet of martyrdom, black of mourning ... now Apoc also says the harlot will say "I am not a widow".
Real RC liturgy wears black on Good Friday - the birthday of the Church, who was Born a Widow and wears black on her birthday. Some (including Novus Ordo "Catholics") would have purple or scarlet on Good Friday. Or both.

ME:
None from Scriptures. All unbiblical stuff then.
Haha
Thank you for confirming the colours.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
Each would also consider the souls of the martyrs are praying in heaven, as we also have in Apocalypse 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

ME:
Yes why? What are you proving?

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
YOU:
For the taking up of the mother of the King ruling with a sceptre of iron, mother of Christ, of God in the flesh, see Apocalypse 12.

ME:
REVELATION 12 IS NOT ABOUT MARY!
Catholics love to misquote Rev 12:1-5 without quoting Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:17. (This is called quoting verses out of context)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~’ Catholics obviously are desperate to use Rev 12 to prove their false doctrines. But wait a minute. Why dont Catholics read the whole of Rev 12? Simply plucking a few verses cannot prove Mary is the woman.

Catholics pls look at Vs 6 and 17.
1. Vs 6. Can Mary come back from the dead to appear in the 7 years Tribulations for Israel in future? Mary have to stay in the wilderness for 3.5 years.

2. Vs 17. Catholics claimed Mary had only one offspring. Then why Vs 17 says "the rest of her offspring"?
So either way Catholics fall into a lie.

- If Catholics say Rev 12 refers to Mary, then Jesus is not the only offspring. So Mary was not Perpetual Virgin. So RCC doctrine is a lie.
- If Catholics say Mary was Perpetual Virgin, then Rev 12 is not Mary. So RCC doctrine is again a lie.

Either way Catholics are liars. Catholic scholars are dumb and ignorant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~’


>>>> Rev 12:6 says the woman ran into the wilderness.
>>>> Rev 12 happens during the Great Tribulation (2nd half of the 7 years Tribulation, a future event Daniel 9:27, Mat 24).
>>>> Mary was already dead. She cannot appear in the Tribulation to run away from Satan. So neither is she the queen Catholics claimed she is.

>>>> The woman refers to Israel going through the persecution running into the wilderness and mountains; a way of escape from God.

>>>> The only Queen of Heaven in the Bible is a demon actually. Catholics are worshipping demons.

Rev 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

>>>> vs 17. Dragon make war with the rest of Mary’s offspring? Can’t be Jesus. Read. “the rest of her offspring” which refers to more than one! So NO! Not Mary!
>>>> vs 17. Dragon make war with the Israel’s offspring? Yes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion:
Rev 12 is not talking about Mary as Catholics claim to be.
Catholics try desperately to make Mary the Queen of heaven (which is a demonic entity in Jeremiah).

Catholics even changed Gen 3:15 from “HE” to “she” to make Mary Queen!!

Normal Bible versions
>>Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.".
>>>> 'He' and 'His' referring to Christ.

Catholic version
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; She shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise Her heel."
>>>'She' and 'Her' refers to Mary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
No other churches exalt Mary as queen of heaven! Neither do they include pagan goddesses into the pantheon of false Marys. WHich part of the BIBLE says Pachamama the Amazon naked pregnant fertility goddess = Mary? Or lady of lourdes or Fat Timah or Lady of Guadeloupe?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Asaph Vapor "Boniface III dies on 19 February, shortly after claiming to be pope of the world."

So happens, the exact title was not "universal bishop" and also so happens, he does leave functions for local bishops.

"Thank you for proving my point. Before AD1054 Ortho RCC were all one."

Speaking of which, where was your church in 1000 or 900 AD?

Btw, Copts and Armenians split off by rejecting Chalcedon, in 451. Assyrians (back then nicknamed Nestorians) already by rejecting Ephesus, in 431.

"So there is really a seat."

There is so for every single local bishop. It's called a Cathedra, and the Church in which a bishop has his Cathedra is called a Cathedral.

Hamburg retains the seat of St. Anscharius or Ansgar. Canterbury is the seat of St. Augustine (not the one of Hippo).

"Thank you for telling me all are unbiblical then."

Yeah, right, tell me where you historically find a Biblical one, in 500 AD?

"None from Scriptures. All unbiblical stuff then."

Un-Biblical = not directly in Scriptures. Let me tell you one thing more which is un-Biblical in that sense, but also as in directly contradicting the Bible : Sola Scriptura!

"Thank you for confirming the colours."

Other view of them, the end times counter-Church is reducing pastoral to these two colours (penance and martyrdom or exaltation), taking in practise away the white of innocence and of purity of faith, the green of peaceful growth.

Or Dimond Brothers, considering the counter-Church as formally founded at Vatican II "has the colours of the bride, but is not the bride".

You seem to think the presence of these colours is in itself a sign of being the counter-Church. Or harlot.

"Yes why? What are you proving?"

That the souls of St. George and St. Maurice are under the altar of God in Heaven, and therefore praying for us.

"Can Mary come back from the dead to appear in the 7 years Tribulations for Israel in future? Mary have to stay in the wilderness for 3.5 years."

What if She stayed in the wilderness of Egypt for 3 and 1/2 years when fleeing to Egypt?

Also, She is not dead.

Also, Israel is not mentioned.

"Catholics claimed Mary had only one offspring. Then why Vs 17 says "the rest of her offspring"? So either way Catholics fall into a lie."

Not if the rest of Her offspring start out with St. John the Gospeller (John 19:26) as adopted and spiritual offspring.

// Rev 12:6 says the woman ran into the wilderness.

>>>> Rev 12 happens during the Great Tribulation (2nd half of the 7 years Tribulation, a future event Daniel 9:27, Mat 24). >>>> Mary was already dead. She cannot appear in the Tribulation to run away from Satan. So neither is she the queen Catholics claimed she is. //

The Flight to Egypt prefigures parts of the tribulation. Herod was possessed by Satan.

// >>>> The woman refers to Israel going through the persecution running into the wilderness and mountains; a way of escape from God. //

Refers to Israel is interpretation, not the text itself. In Catholic interpretation, "daughter Sion" refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

// >>>> The only Queen of Heaven in the Bible is a demon actually. Catholics are worshipping demons. //

Except the demon mentioned in Jeremiah is hated by God for taking a title God was reserving for His upcoming Mother.

// >>>> vs 17. Dragon make war with the rest of Mary’s offspring? Can’t be Jesus. Read. “the rest of her offspring” which refers to more than one! So NO! Not Mary! //

Spiritual offspring, starting with John 19:26.

// >>>> vs 17. Dragon make war with the Israel’s offspring? Yes. //

Perhaps notably with Palestinian Christians ...

// Catholics even changed Gen 3:15 from “HE” to “she” to make Mary Queen!! //

It would seem, Hebrew has female pronouns for "seed" as well as for "woman". LXX renders pronoun to fit "sperma" as neuter, or even as masculine, but Vulgate has "she" referring to woman. Together they reflect that Hebrew is ambiguous about "woman" or "her seed".

There is however a part of the verse, where there is no ambiguity at all: And I will put enmity Between you and the woman

Enmity with Satan = not sinning. Bc sinning = slavery under Satan.

"No other churches exalt Mary as queen of heaven!"

All Christian Churches I know of in 500 AD do.

"Neither do they include pagan goddesses into the pantheon of false Marys."

I am not considering Bergoglio, the Patxamama worshipper, as a Catholic.

"WHich part of the BIBLE says Pachamama the Amazon naked pregnant fertility goddess = Mary?"

None, neither does the Catholic Church.

Note, Patxamama is not an Amazonian, but an Andine version of Ceres / Demeter.

"Or lady of lourdes or Fat Timah or Lady of Guadeloupe?"

We can take Luke 1, where Elisabeth said : Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

A place where She has come is a holy place.

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