Pope Michael, Not a Meme, Accepting Bergoglio, Not an Obligation

Catholic Apologist Matt Fradd Answers My TOP OBJECTIONS to Catholicism
Capturing Christianity | 15.II.2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmX190JG8-8

Initial comment to Video. Then, debate with Xavilupe:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

21:27 Before St. Augustine and before even Constantine, the prayer Sub Tuum Praesidium actually starts out as a "Coptic" Christmas hymn. Greek and Coptic language versions of it end differently from the Latin one, and the Greek ends in "su mone hagne, su mone eulogemene" - thou alone pure, thou alone blessed.

It is from c. 250 AD.

This and Gregory Palamas believing in Immaculate Conception were vital for my reversion to Catholicism (after I had already started going to Latin Mass again) from the Eastern Orthodox.

If Pope Michael ever canonises Palamas, I'll be happy to adress him as a saint again!

Xavilupe

lol? Pope Michael? rly?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe Well, I'll be happier to adress a saint as such over his canonisation than over Antipope Bergoglio's supposed such.

Xavilupe

@Hans-Georg Lundahl We had a lot of non holy popes, I see sedevacantisms as a modernist heresy, focusing on a private exam of who is pope and who's not.

And I think Pope Michael is a meme, I hope you were joking, but seems not.
And about Palamas, I think Easern Catholics pray to him.
Hope Gods guides your live as I ask for myself.

God bless.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe Pope Michael condemns sedevacantism proper, that is the position that in 2020 we have still not a Pope since 1958.

Private interpretation? Private exam?

If you think your math teacher is a fraud because you disagree with him about the tenth decimal of π, you may be engaging in a private exam, but if you think so because he said two plus two make five, ask daddy to take you to another school or homeschool. Wojtyla at Assisi 1986, Bergoglio "canonising" him or saying "some imagine God like a demiurge with an omnipotent magic wand" (both I think in 2014) are the equivalent of a math teacher saying two plus two make five.

If he comes out as saying "the Resurrection of Christ was just a spiritual event, with no material consequences", will you still say it's private exam to say he is no Catholic and hence no Pope?

If Pope Michael utters approval of this Eastern Catholic custom, I'll gladly adopt it.

@Xavilupe Just a reminder : Alexander VI tried to force his son Cesare to become bishop of Carpentras (but retracted) and may have been weighing in to get Savonarola condemned, but he denied no dogma, Marian, Ecclesiastic or Theology of Creation. Not even glibly, in hasty words (which hasty words in Bergoglio's case have not been retracted).

The one Pope who was even rumoured to have invoked Greco-Roman pagan gods was deposed by the Emperor in the synod of Sutri. Despite this being lay interference in the highest papal affairs, this synod was not declared null.

Xavilupe

@Hans-Georg Lundahl No single pope ever said: "the Resurrection of Christ was just a spiritual event, with no material consequences".

And, even if he does, it won't make the pope's election invalid.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe Yes, precisely, it most definitely would. Read up on this in St. Robert Bellarmine.

An apostate pope is a non-pope.

Wojtyla participating in the cult of false gods, moral heresy against first commandment.

Bergoglio participating in it by canonising him, again moral heresy against the first commandment.

Bergoglio putting some kinds of limit on the power which God disposed of in creating, doctrinal heresy against first article of the faith.

Heresies against first article of faith or first commandment are also termed apostasy.

Xavilupe

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Saint Robert Bellarmine has a theological opinion.

Evne considering this, there has been no judment of papal actions, there has not been, by the way, formal heresy (and, again, it should be judged by the church, not particulars).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe There are situations when judgment by due authority is not needed in the particular case.

Apostasy immediately deposes any clergyman, I think this is even in the canon law.

It is certain he had a theological opinion, and that opinion most certainly was not "popes who defy unicity or deny omnipotence of God must remain popes until deposed by due authority".

Obviously they couldn't be. There is no due authority above a pope.

Xavilupe

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
I don't think any pope formaly denied the Trinity or the omnipotence of God, we can even found a lot of claims of post V2 in favour of these dogmas.

Also, talking about a pope, it seems pretty clear that is needed a grave authority discerning it and denouncing an explicit heresy and he didn't rejecting it and being pertinent stubborn on that heresy. Something that didn't happened.
Also, I'm not agree that if even that was the case, the Pope stops being Pope. Even if he is by it's believe out of the catholic church subjectively, he stills being a baptised man and onthologically vinculated to the body of Christ; Church is not just an spiritual institution but visual too, it's not just about holyness or orthodoxy but about jurisdiction receibed, etc. It should be deposed, how?, no idea, it's something without precedents, I think, forcing a rejection?, making a kinda council?. The opposite opinion I think that falls in something close to donatism.

I'm going to end with a St. Catherine of Sienna quote: "Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our father is condemned"

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe "I don't think any pope formaly denied the Trinity or the omnipotence of God, we can even found a lot of claims of post V2 in favour of these dogmas."

Here is Bergoglio on omnipotence in creation:

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis told the gathering, where he also dedicated a statue of his predecessor, Benedict XVI. God, Francis said, "created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment."

npr : Pope Says God Not 'A Magician, With A Magic Wand'
October 28, 201411:18 AM ET / SCOTT NEUMAN
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/10/28/359564982/pope-says-god-not-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand

Cited by me here:

Creation vs. Evolution : Two "Magic Wand" quotes
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/01/two-magic-wand-quotes.html

"Also, talking about a pope, it seems pretty clear that is needed a grave authority discerning it and denouncing an explicit heresy and he didn't rejecting it and being pertinent stubborn on that heresy. Something that didn't happened."

If your math teacher is a fraud because wrong on tenth decimal of π, yes, you need a graver authority than yourself. If a math teacher is a fraud because claiming two and two make five, you do not so. Some cases are too blatant to need what is properly termed "judgement" i e discernment.

"Also, I'm not agree that if even that was the case, the Pope stops being Pope."

One Paul Natterer whom I heard on tape recorder when 25 and some, considers that apostasy does not immediately depose a clergyman, unless as blatant as converting to Islam or Buddhism. However, the "magic wand" quote from Bergoglio is a fairly blatant conversion to the Communist or Western Atheist pov, meaning, that condition is fulfilled.

"Even if he is by it's believe out of the catholic church subjectively, he stills being a baptised man and onthologically vinculated to the body of Christ; Church is not just an spiritual institution but visual too, it's not just about holyness or orthodoxy but about jurisdiction receibed, etc."

It so happens, an audible or legible expression of apostasy visibly puts someone outside the Church. Holiness and lack of it are less easy to judge, well, if you rape a nun on the altar, you are visibly outside the Church, until you repent, but barring that, holiness is a criterium open to God's judgement, not so much man's. That is why holy men are not canonised until there are three miracles from God on their behalf : the human judgement on someone being holy needs backing with less ambiguous material, like God intervening for three miracles.

For Orthodoxy, this is not so.

"It should be deposed, how?, no idea, it's something without precedents, I think, forcing a rejection?, making a kinda council?. The opposite opinion I think that falls in something close to donatism."

Donatus was a heretic who considered that apostates could never be reconciled to the Church, even by penance.

"I'm going to end with a St. Catherine of Sienna quote: 'Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our father is condemned' "

She was speaking of the criterium of holiness, not about the criterium of orthodoxy, where we do need to be able to oppose for instance the False Prophet or the Antichrist, not on account of their bad lives, or one or two individual cases of power abuse, but on account of their bad general use of power.

Xavilupe

@Hans-Georg Lundahl I don't see in that quotes a clear negation of omnipotence of God. And the one about human depeloping according their nature, it's affirming free will.
And, even if he can be wrong in something, that doesn't mean he is an heretic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Xavilupe Look here, the second part is not exactly why I considered him as denying the omnipotence in creation.

It is irrelevant that "magician" and "magic wand" are added in first part, they are rhetoric disparaging flourishes on omnipotence as usually understood by the Church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

[added]

@Xavilupe "the one about human depeloping according their nature,"

The context being creation and genesis, I think it's about Adam developing from pre-human ancestors, which was a big no no up to 1941, when Pius XII wavered on that point.

Pope Michael "a meme"?

If you mean a joke made up on the internet, no. I have had discussions with him and some of his then adherents, back when I was Palmarian, in 2002. I got the news of his ordination to priest and consecration as bishop way in 2011 (Church year 2012 started), on Gaudete Sunday, as I was already following him on FB.

Only some time after that (though I congratulated him), I actually adherred to him.