...on Malthusianism and disasters

Re: The Flood
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 07:07 pm
Msg: 33507 of 33519

In Atrahasis, the Flood is sent by the gods to reduce overpopulation.
an early malthusian misrepresentation of the flood - which proves how babylonian Bertrand Russel's malthusianism is!

it would seem rather, that the flood and the reduction of longevity were punishments for malthusian perversions of filthy rich (like the fire in Sodom)

Posted as a reply to: Msg 33506 by dhux99

Re: The cheerleaders for homocide
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 02:35 pm
Msg: 33483 of 33515

"The end justifies the means informs the illogical of abortion activist murderers. Here also Catholics need to totally renouce the violence or terror used at abortion clincs."

I totally renounce the malthusian terrorist/genocidal acts committed by abortionists at abortion clinics!

Re: The cheerleaders for homocide
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 02:50 pm
Msg: 33488 of 33515

"I totally renounce the malthusian terrorist/genocidal acts committed by abortionists at abortion clinics!"

So you support a married woman's right to effective birthcontrol? That would reduce population pressure on limited resources right there.

I said I renounced the malthusian terrorist acts, which you refer to as "effective birthcontrol". Are you unable to read?

Posted as a reply to: Msg 33486 by llew32

Re: The cheerleaders for homocide
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 07:14 pm
Msg: 33508 of 33515

wrote llew:

How would you like to see the population grow in your country? Do you lean more toward letting God & Nature make those decisions or should people get consciously involved?

People should get consciously involved against malthusianism in order to make the decision to let God and Nature make the decision of HOW MANY babies, once sex starts.

Posted as a reply to: Msg 33493 by llew32

Re: The Flood
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 11:24 pm
Msg: 33561 of 33561

India provides an example of many of the problems of over-population.

Actually it doesn't. India is not over populated. New Delhi might be, but India is not.

Or one should perhaps say: the favela of New Delhi might be.

But actually it is not either. The problem is not so much the many people as the fact they are allotted no more space. And the problem is also more keenly felt by a western or filthy rich Indian visitor, complaining basically that the crowd hurts his precious nose and sense of smell, than by the people living there. One should always be very suspicious of "problems" which are more keenly felt by people looking at them than by people supposedly having them.

dhux is also trying to throw smudge on Israel of Old Testament times - because it produced the Old Testament. She is less suspicious of Jews in New Testament times who have produced the Talmud.

The Old Testament states for instance that:

• 1 what falls to the ground at harvest must NOT be picked up by owner, but belongs to the poor passing by.
• 2 after the beginning of a sabbatical year (every seventh), no debts incurred before it may be collected - a law which Hillel nullified by his newfangled tradition!
• 3 after the beginning of a jubilee (every fiftieth, after seven sabbatical years) every real estate sold returns to previous owner, unless sold to a levite.
• 4 it was expressly forbidden to take interest of one's brother, i e fellow Israelite.
• 5 if a poor man gave his mantle as surety for the loan, it was expressly forbidden to keep it from him at night.

These laws were very much lauded by the Christian theologians. Including those least friendly to the Jews.

Can you show me any Babylonian law that equally forbids the extorsion of the poor by the rich?

Hans Georg Lundahl

Posted as a reply to: Msg 33528 by dhux99

Re: The Flood & other disasters
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 11:48 pm
Msg: 33563 of 33563

Utah, where i live now, provides some illustrations too. Every time we double the population we double the demand for clean water, fertile soil and fish from the sea (or trout around here :)

The trouble is, we have less clean water, less fertile soil and less trout and even if we could (miraculously or technologically) double the amount of clean water, fertile soil and trout (which we're not doing anyway) the benefits would be wiped out when the population doubles again.

Utah is a desert, a country where Mormon robbers have raided caravans. Even so, it provides an illustration of my point: as yet it has not doubled its population far enough to cause a starvation or thirst disaster. Before it did so, the population growth would probably slow down, or people would change their lifestyle in a way which lessens the demand for fresh water: drinking beer, wine, coffee, tea - drinks where water is either kept fresh longer by alcohol or refreshened by boiling (unless people are stupid enough to remain Mormons*) AND wasting less water on washing oneself.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Posted as a reply to: Msg 33532 by llew32

*Mormons I've met are definitely included in the note below:
*Mystery of kindness

Re: The Flood & other disasters
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/18/03 01:16 am
Msg: 33566 of 33566

overfishing comes from industrial fishing as well as its waste of good fish by handling involving a lot of transport, throwing away, et c

there are however more fish in the sea than ever came out of it - the cod may have gone somewhere else, or it may in the future increase in numbers again - by geometrical population growth

we do not know

there is such a thing as trusting God, and if we are not to be afraid even when hearing of war, why should we be afraid of a rumour of overfishing?

have you ever considered that the advice of fear may be counterproductive and the trust in Providence may give very many unexpected boons?

St Patrick was so blind he hung his gaunts up on a ray of light - and God kept them there as if it had been a hook. He was in a rush begetting spiritual children by prayer and preaching, and making them acceptable to God by chastity and fasting, as well as prayer and alms. Some should at least be in a hurry to beget corporeal children, unless they can be chaste!

Ever heard of a poor Irish family with many children having to give up fish 'n' chips permanently? There may have been, but hardly for the reasons you suggest.

Posted as a reply to: Msg 33565 by llew32

Re: Hill, Kopp, Rudolph=pro-life martry
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/17/03 07:36 pm
Msg: 33515 of 33515

Likewise it seems odd to support the rights of the fetus but not a child's (1) rights to education (2), healthcare (3) and freedom (4)with even more passion. Surely being human is as important as the potential to become human; whether or not you believe that a single cell should be termed "human" it's pretty obvious that 6th graders, for instance, are humans and need our help.

• 1) once a girl can get pregnant/a young man can make a girl pregnant, they are no longer children.
• 2) educating someone to think abortion right and completing one's education more important than completing one's motherhood is educating that someone very badly - and stopping her from abortion is to give her a good lesson worth ten thousand schoolyears.
• 3) abortion is no healthcare.
• 4) is freedom from motherhood - motherhood is after all an end of one's existance as a woman - more important than freedom from school - school is after all just a means to such ends, or it was once supposed to be! - oh, no, it is not.
  
  

It's possible to eliminate an abortion by taking the girl into your home and supporting her and her child while she gets some education.

That is usually the task of her husband (or parents, if the father of the child refuses to marry the mother), and it is usually the task of a man who has made someone pregnant to become her husband.

And if he is old enough to make a child, he is naturally considered old enough to work for its support. If he can get no work, he has a duty to beg - and not primarily from such social welfare authorities which might use the occasion to stop him from supporting his family.

Anyone stopping him from begging to support his child and wife and further children is a goddam murderer.

Anyone "legislating" to stop him from working to support his wife and child is also a goddam murderer.

Anyone who "legislates" to allow his girl an abortion in order to allow him to escape those duties is VERY obviously a goddam murderer.

Anyone who "legislates" to make him dependent on social welfare, just because he is young, is at least a goddam slave hunter (I've defended slavery for SOME reasons, but not for others, and a man disliking another man's freedom and preferring his dependence on himself is, unless he is already legitimately master of him one of the OTHER reasons, the WRONG ones), and if he knows they are going to put pressure on him or her or both to either have an abortion or have birth control after that child he is a goddam murderer or malthusian pervert.

solemnly
Hans Georg Lundahl
Posted as a reply to: Msg 33489 by llew32

Answers to llewby: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 09/21/03 03:05 pm
Msg: 33736 of 33736

Hey Hans,
where is Malmo, if i may ask and what church you belong to? I see you are facing a different set of legislation than we are, what's going on?

Malmö is in S Sweden, we have a heavily proabortionist "legislation", I do not attend Church, because there is the New Mass - or Greek Orthodox* - or most of the time nothing.

I appreciate your perspective here, i have a friend who's trying to get me to help with some orphaneges in Africa especially for kids whose parents have died from AIDS, so i'm really open to hear how someone other than an American or European sees the situation in their country.

As said, I am European.

Are there a lot of young fathers there begging in order to support your kids?

None that I know of - except begging from social welfare. And that is the problem.

When do most young people start having children there?

In the capital, Stockholm, women are generally past thirty - which is the problem.

If they aren't begging what sort of work are they likely to be doing?

Youngsters are likely to be in school and have an abortion - which is the problem.

Why is it a woman's duty to have children right away?

So she can have more children: so each child (or grandchild is less burdened with taking care of her. Our welfare system and old age care is breaking down. The next generation or the one after that will realise that the family must take care of the old. It is already a blatant fact, but feminist/malthusian ideology is very blinding.

Also, if a girl cannot keep her chastity till 21 (most of them cannot under modern conditions, you know), she ought to marry.

Couldn't she help her children more if she got a few years of education, say until she was 21 or so, before she began having children?

That should be the father's concern. If the mother goes working, she cannot have as many children as she should, for the people's, the family's, her own and their own sakes.

You know, so she and her husband could get some income producing skills before they had kids.

Why should a man have to study till 21 to get a decent work to support his wife on? Do you need secondary highschool to be a good sailor, truck driver, hairdresser, cook, et c? Obviously not.

And finally, how would you like to see things change for the better? Any ideas on what to do to make that change happen? And what would you like to see America or Europe do, if anything, to help out?

Follow the good example of Kentucky and Tennessee as they were back in 1995 and possibly still are: a 12 yr old girl should be able to marry, a married wife should be able to quit school, however young she were. Have you noticed that the school gun killings, like in Columbine high school were NOT in those states, though they have many guns there?

just wondering, thanks for your patience

Thanks for YOUR patience, waiting for my answer so long!

*now I am Roumanian Orthodox myself