Thursday, December 20, 2018

Answering Barron on Hell

Bishop Barron on Whether Hell is Crowded or Empty
Bishop Robert Barron | 28.III.2018

2:05 Origenism, specifically apocastasis and perhaps also preexistence of souls, weren't a lot of these positions condemned by a Council, Ecumenical V, II of Constantinople?

While it seems the Pope did not sign those condemnations, but condemned three chapters instead (though it's a long time since I read that in Newman and he could have been wrong, even if not likely), hasn't tradition since then given an ordinary magisterium acceptance of Origenism being condemned on such points?

Bishop Robert Barron
So what? I condemn it too.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Bishop Robert Barron will be noted.

3:25 As I recall St Thomas : most people overall will be damned.

Most Catholics will be saved.

However, it seems some saints, like was it Liguori go one further and say even most Catholics will be damned since not practising Catholicism seriously enough. To St Thomas they are a minority.

Perhaps reflects a bit on the Catholic societies St Thomas and St Alfons were seeing.

In 13th C. most of Western Christendom had no slaves and sweetened things mainly with honey.

In 18th C. colonies were usually with black slaves and many Europeans even in countries with no colonies sweetened things with sugar (typically produced by slave labour).

Entertainments were also a bit different ...

4:26 While I relish Balthasar as Mariologist, I am less into his Barthian venture.

Also less into his admirer (if I recall correctly) Augustine Bea.

If I'd pinpoint one chief agent of Satan in founding Vatican II Sect, I'd chiefly suspect Bea - confessor of Pius XII in his worse years and of Antipope Roncalli.

I'd even except Roncalli from Hell, if he really cried "stop the council" ... less optimistic of Bea.

After hearing you out, semi-Barthian.

6:04 "spatial and visual metaphors"

If you mean a space and a vision provided by God as Creator and judge metaphorically appropriate to the state of those damned, very possible.

But if you mean the space is not there and cannot be seen outside metaphors in texts, no.

Heaven and Hell really are places.

One bonus with being Geocentric is, you can debunk "infinite universe" as impossible and also "billions of light years" as unproven and very improbable.

In the cosmos, you have globe within globe, and Hell is within or therefore beneath Earth, Heaven above or outside the Stars.

Article 11, Resurrection of the flesh.

There really is a place where Christ is seated (or standing as a sacrificial lamb) and from where He is "bilocated" (loosely speaking) to each Holy Mass and each tabernacle with valid consecration. His dear Mother is there, also risen. We (those of us who are saved) will be there.

Considering Hell as a "spatial metaphor" implies you could consider Heaven so too. No.

6:28 Not just the loneliness as poena damni (losing God), but also the fire, as poena sensus. Or sensuum.

6:42 "the Church has never declared on that subject"

Except through ordinary Magisterium about Judas, about Beast, about False Prophet and about those taking their mark.

"the Church has never declared on that subject" is often - as here - a copout for not wanting to believe the traditional position of the ordinary magisterium of hundreds of popes and thousands of bishops and the believers they so taught.

8:53 I think you may be taking the sense of the "the love of God lights the fires of Hell" in a somewhat non-Lewisian sense.

If you go to Pilgrim's Regress, God's love poses Hell as a limit of evil. Evil being privation, any further evil is always logically possible, but by making Hell, God has posed a limit on how much you can hurt yourself by abusing your free will.

Like a suicide in Dante, if you live in eternity like a tree without movement, you are in a cosmic straightjacket ...

You are more making it like "rejecting God's love hurts" ... as in human relations. While true, this is not about Hell fire. It's about the poena damni. Yes, the damned who realise who God was in their lives and cannot get Him back will curse Him for that too. But the fires are something else and physical.

It's not to Lewis but to some Eastern Orthodox you want to go if you want a confusion of those levels.

And while Hell is in a sense self imposed, it is also imposed.

God decreeing that a soul shall face the reality of what it chose ...

Even if CSL missed part of that. He was not infallible.

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