Tuesday, May 7, 2024

Trent Horn Answers Allie Beth Stuckey (and I Compete With Him)

Catholic vs. Protestant: Praying to Mary | Guest: Trent Horn | Ep 997
Allie Beth Stuckey | 6.V.2024

7:25 "Catholics and Protestants have been together for a long time"

When was the first time they met? Where did both come from? What were the circumstances?

Hmmm ...

7:58 An experience shared by ma, before I was even made.

She joined OM. George Verver, Operation Mobilisation (have to reread his Messiology btw), they sent her to Italy to tell the Catholics about Jesus.

Her conclusion was, they were Christians.

8:43 I think European Lutherans, Anglicans, except for both of them the High Church factions, and Calvinists and Zwinglians are more likely to call themselves Protestant.

They are direct "rebellious daughters" of the Catholic Church, the US Evangelical congregations are more usually sth like granddaughter or greatgranddaughters more usually starting out with a rebellion against their mothers, which was not the Catholic Church.

Exception for some like Mike Gendron who are overtly pretty anti-Catholic.

15:18 I think at least a faction of Jews has had such a conspiracy. Or had local conspiracies.

It boils down to:
  • did Jews kill Simon of Trent or did a Christian do it in order to blame Jews and do it in a manner expertly imitating kosher slaughter?
  • similar question for Xanten, where Jews could not be indicted collectively and no Jew was indicted individually, which was it?
  • with St. William of Norwich, was it a Jewish murder of a Christian boy and a Jew who confessed knowing about it when converting, bona fide, or was he killed by Christians and if so, why did the converting Jew confess?

"Thomas of Monmouth's account is attributed to the testimony of a monk and former Jew named Theobald of Cambridge. Theobald alleged that the murder was a human sacrifice and that the "ancient writings of his fathers" required the yearly killing of a Christian. This was allegedly for two reasons: to one day return to the Holy Land during the Messianic Age and to punish Jesus Christ for the religious persecution that the Jewish people continued to experience at the hands of his followers.[7] While there is no such commandment for human sacrifice anywhere in Jewish theology or Rabbinic literature, Theobald further alleged that William's murderers were not practitioners of conventional Orthodox Judaism. The murder was allegedly ordered at Narbonne, by a cult leader who had declared himself to be the Jewish Messiah and who had cast lots to select where in Europe his followers were to commit the murder. The lots had allegedly fallen upon Norwich and the pseudo-messiah informed his followers among the French-speaking Jewish communities of England by both messengers and letters.[7]"

Well, if there was anything fishy with Theobald, it was arguably saying "it was ordered from Narbonne" so as to get the local community off the hook.

20:10 "He's come also to the chosen people"

Actually first to them.

20:38 This question boils down to what you call "Jewish" ... when it comes to who was "Jewish" in 33 AD, and when the Synoptics were written, no, some opposed and became faithful Christians, and they are part of the ancestry of Palestinians (so are Samaritans who became Christians in Acts 8).

When it comes to "Jewish" in 90--100 AD, it is clear from the Apocalypse that the descendants of Christ-killers or sympathisers with such who were persecuting Christians and arguably Christians of Jewish ethnicity were calling themselves Jews, and Jesus didn't ratify that from heaven, but then from the Gospel that as for usage on earth, "we can let those guys keep the ethnonym" ...

a) Christ said "woe ye, Pharisees, for ..."
b) Christ said to the Jews "woe ye, for ..."

The one formula (insert Pharisees plus or insert other specific group) = Synoptics. The other = Gospel of St. John.

(None of the Gospels ever has
Jesus said "woe ye Jews"
and specifically in John, Jesus did tell the Samaritan woman "Salvation is from the Jews")

21:51 Metatron, if you have seen him, pretended Jesus was arrested by Romans.

No. Roman soldiers would have made Peter regret cutting off the ear of Malchus, specifically mentioned as servant of the high priest, very quickly. (Malchus is probably Malachy, btw) The guys who stood by and thought "can't punish him, that was not what we were sent for" were Jewish temple guards.

23:26 Jesus remained in Galilee because some sect of Jews rejecting Him (perhaps Pharisees, perhaps Herodians, perhaps Sadducees) were seeking to kill him. Or an angry crowd.

Not all the people of Judaea, just some of the groups which held power. Which on occasion would include angry crowds.

St. John, in the narrator voice, systematically effaces those nuances and calls them Jews instead. Again, he probably wrote the Gospel for the same guys who had been told the King of the Jews didn't consider their persecutors as Jews, and in order for them to refrain calling themselves Jews and allow the term to those who chose the Antichristian stance, those in whom Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians and angry mobs were subsumed, as they were now persecuting Christians.

24:43 Gamaliel was an older generation.

One generation of Pharisees involve Gamaliel, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathaea, as far as I can see they (perhaps not the last of these) were the people who had been adult admirers of Jesus age 12 in the temple (the original Yanuka), the next generation, their sons and disciples (notably St. Paul before his conversion) are the ones who were out to get him.

Imagine your dad or rabbi telling you, you were nearly as talented in the memorisation and comprehension of the law as that boy Yehoshua bar Yoseph they had seen in the temple ten years earlier.

25:14 There is arguably some right for the Popes (or at least one) who did speak of the perpetual servitude of Jews.

One could state that the servitude consists in being a museum of the OT, so as to make clear how the prophecies are not vaticinia post eventu, since those rejecting the fulfilment still share the prophecy. Or one could state, that Jews have now escaped that is one of the signs of the end times.

27:56 Other argument that St. John in his gospel is mechanically replacing groups of enemies of Christ with the term Jews, because of the situation around c. 100 AD.

Btw, he didn't deprive himself of a word with which to term people of Jewish ethnicity.

Damien Mackey has argued that Essenians split into Herodians and another group who often became Christians, and in Essenian usage, "Jew" refers to corrupt collaborators with Romans, while same ethnicity, different personal righteousness, as in actually righteous, they would say "Israelite" instead.

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him: and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.
[John 1:47]

However, otherwise Jesus in the Gospel says "Jew" and means his own ethnicity. Except before Pilate in 18:36.

But yes, searching through the NT mentions of "Jews" in concentrating on John, it is used in a quirky way, as if code for some other word.

33:07 Was the Ark of the covenant venerated, and did Elisabeth replicate that veneration in relation to Mary?

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[Luke 1:43]
And David was afraid of the Lord that day, saying: How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?
[2 Kings (2 Samuel) 6:9]

Credits to Fr. Kevin Drew. I was searching DRBO for "whence is this to me" when the correct text of the OT parallel has "how"

33:57 Even on sola scriptura terms, if you include the right to use clear allusions, lots of Marian doctrine come from the OT.

The Ark coming to King David. Already mentioned.

"Blessed among women" is used twice about women who killed enemies of Israel, specifically in ways that could be described as crushing their heads (Sisera, Holophernes, and taking away the book of Judith still leaves Sisera).

So, my guess is, when the angel repeats that, what the Blessed Virgin was most puzzled about was ... what enemy of Israel had She killed? Ever? She was a delicate teen girl.

The next usage of the words come from Elisabeth, now that Our Lady is pregnant, Elisabeth can add "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" ...

That very obviously rang a bell. Genesis 3:15. She and Her Son were killers of the serpent. Plus ... She had already been so before being pregnant. The angel uses the word in verse 28, and in verse 31 speaks of Her pregnancy as still upcoming.

So, this means, even before being mother of God, She was slayer of the serpent. How? Well, an exorcist said that fighting the demon is not the kind of superhero stuff you see in movies about exorcism. What is the exact one thing Satan cannot survive in his relation to any human being? Freedom from sin.

He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[1 John 3:8]

So, Mary having already killed the devil before She was Mother of His killer could only mean, She was sinless. That's the exact moment She bursts out calling God Her Saviour.

Now look at Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. 28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

In other words, She had valued Her sinlessness more than the privilege of being Mother of God, and raised Her Son to share this exact priority. Would the plural here go against my interpretation?

Two answers.

a) She valued Her community with all who overcome sin. She's the Mother of the Church.
b) In another context, He actually uses the singular.

And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren.
[Matthew 12:49]

In other words, He did not hold His Mother blameworthy for the family intrigue She had been forced to externally participate in, He considered Her as part of His disciples.

And if you think of it, She had been His disciple before being His Mother, from the first moment She had ever prayed or opened a Torah or had it read to Her.

39:08 That very passage is very definitely a special honour given to His Mother.

In context, He's not able to openly complement Her faithfulness, He would expose Her to Her stepchildren, older than Himself, children of Joseph from a previous marriage, but if you analyse his response ...

"my brother" = any male disciple
"my sister" = any female disciple
"and my mother" = and by the way, Mary belongs here too!

39:24 Apocalypse 12.

41:42 Women apart from Mary would include Clare, Terese, Terese and Clare (of Assisi, of Avila, Thérèse Martin, Crockett).

Some have prayed to Sr. Clare Crockett for a drunk man's conversion, and he converted.

44:07 I think that you are overreaching when you say "every Christian's prayer" — here is from James 5 in context:

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Cesar Garcia
Bro, my mind straight up went to Elijah/(Elias) also.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@cesargarcia7074 will share

44:26 King Josaphat disagreed:

And Josaphat said: Is there not here a prophet of the Lord, that we may beseech the Lord by him? And one of the servants of the king of Israel answered: Here is Eliseus the son of Saphat, who poured water on the hands of Elias
[4 Kings (2 Kings) 3:11]

James has just mentioned Elias in the context, and Elisaeus is here singled out as someone through whom to beseech the Lord.

44:33 Abraham could hear the prayers of the rich man.

He refused them, but for other reasons than not being able to hear them.

45:01 If you had the choice between a respected pastor and a drunk teen (who was still a believer, so, on your view a man justified by Christ?) would you prefer the respected pastor?

One choses intercessors from two closenesses. Closeness to oneself, closeness to God. Both are valid criteria, but St. James is talking about the latter.

45:23 Critical mass ... holiness of one person, Elias is directly mentioned.

Number of righteous people, remember God's promises to Abraham about where his nephew Lot was.

The "critical mass" is always shrinking, but it is there.

Lot himself was saved with family for his righteousness in rejecting a chalcolithic or early Bronze Age version of LGBT agendas, but even more for the righteousness of his uncle Abraham.

46:06 Jacob was clearly predestined. Now, do prayers of saints help to bring about, not God's eternal act of predestining someone, but how this predestination comes to fruition in time? Check this:

And Isaac besought the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and he heard him, and made Rebecca to conceive
[Genesis 25:21]

Minimum for Jacob to come to eternal glory was to be conceived, and this happened because Isaac prayed. (Classical prooftext for prayers of the saints)

46:54 I am greeting the Blessed Virgin in the words used by the angel and by Elisabeth.

And in doing so, I am fulfilling Her prophecy of all generations (i e of the justified) calling Her blessed.

49:16 "to the dead" ...

Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live
[John 11:25]

PLUS, Abraham never told the rich man, "you shouldn't make requests from me, I have died" ...

PLUS, you arguably base the rule on a ban on necromancy, which has a much narrower definition, summoning (or trying to summon) souls from Hades so they can speak what you are curious about.

49:44 You just contradicted Luke 16, where Abraham never said "I can't pray for anyone", but rather "no one can pray for you any more" and "no one should make that request for your brothers" ...

PLUS some passages in the Apocalypse. Angels, 24 elders, souls of the martyrs.

50:55 Narnian time.

While 1 minute passes on earth, the time experience of those in heaven is stretched to whatever they need to attend to in that manner.

51:15 She has omnipotence of prayer, like God of own powers.

Omniscience? No, just awareness given by God what pertains to Her glory.

52:30 God achieves the transformation of our capacities.

Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.
[1 John 3:2]

53:28 That He has granted every person in heaven the ability to bring forth prayers on behalf of those on earth?

Apocalypse. Angels. 24 elders. Souls of martyrs.

Mary is just the most prime example.

1:00:08 Trent and I would definitely disagree on whether direct condemnation of pre-Adamites or indirectly of millions of years before Adam still are valid as official statements of Catholic doctrine.

1:00:47 That metric would be very typically US.

It's also true of some Catholic countries, where liberalism is prevalent, the liberals are not changing denomination, if already in majority and welcome in theirs, while some Protestants in France would feel, if they were liberal, they could just as well be Catholic.

However, in other Catholic countries, Poland and Croatia, this is not so. And in Protestant countries, Catholics are the more conservative ones.

1:03:56 The Reformers didn't hold that, and High Church Anglicans and Lutherans don't hold that.

1:06:51 John 14:6 certainly teaches that Christ is our righteousness, we have no righteousness outside Him.

It is less apparent that it should mean Christ is the thing we mean when referring to someone as righteous, as in no actions of goodwill or omissions of sins in the person himself.

And that misinterpretation is indeed condemned. Along with denial of John 14:6. Mike Gendron stated the Council of Trent issued 130 excommunications.

I'm ploughing through them, and Session VI on justification has:

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

So, the correct teaching is, if I am currently justified, my righteousness is a result of Christ's justice, it could not exist without it, but it is still distinct and involves acts and omissions on my part.

"she is living In Perpetual sin 1:08:18 and we do believe that you die to your old self you become a new creation and even though we won't fully stop sinning 1:08:26 that's our belief until until heaven we do believe in Progressive sanctification"

Ah, sounds more Catholic to me than some Protestant doctrine I was myself into, back when a Lutheran!

Lordship salvation. A k a "works salvation" to the real direct heirs of the Reformation!

1:10:43 Using a rubber is basically a physically slightly different method of the exact same result that Onan was going for.

Genesis 38:9. No, the detestable thing was not refusing his brother heirs, that was his motive for the detestable thing.

1:12:17 "we don't have one institution"

The first Christians had that. The Church.

1:12:22 "that the Church or the Pope is not the authority"

Contrary to 1 Tim 3:15.

1:15:04 P of the TULIP, heresy, like the rest of that black tulip.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

Now, the result of this [of TULIP P] would be, given that some who take steps to be justified, like get baptised and so on, and then fall away, that some people would simply be wasting their time totally by any act they try to do to obey God, even with faith in Christ. God would have been leading them on. Hence, the idea is, those who fall away were never justified in the first place = God predestined them for evil, which is heresy.

1:19:16 It certainly has had a positive effect on this Catholic who became Catholic precisely bc of that.

More seriously, the idea laymen shouldn't read the Bible was locally enforced regulations in some areas that had had heresies.

There were always exceptions if the priest thought one should study the Bible and so on.

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