Sunday, May 12, 2024

13th or 14th Nisan, the Last Supper?

Did John Contradict Mark on the Day Jesus Died? | Useful Charts Response
Testify | 19 March 2023

18:01 "which every Jew knows means the day before Saturday"

Not in the context of Pesakh. Then it means the day after Sunset of which the Pesakh begins with the Seder.

I may have been a bit hasty on this one.

18:51 It may be noted, Matt Baker is using a pre-determined Hebrew calendar. This has been the case since Hillel II. That's after Julian failed to restore the Temple, and the Sanhedrin was dissolved.

However, in Our Lord's day, the beginning of a month was by observation of the New Moon.

And, it may simply be, Our Lord observed the New Moon one evening earlier than the temple did, and as He was in Galilee, separated from the temple by Samaria, He relied on His observation.

St. John who says it was "the day of preparation of the Jews" usually as narrator uses "Jews" of the enemies of Jesus, even if Jesus when speaking uses it of His nation.

Ooops, it seems Nestle Aland does have "Jews" in 19:14, but not in genitive of parascheue ... either way, Pilate would be concerned with the date held by the Temple and the population of Jerusalem, which had mostly all of them been in Jerusalem at the beginning of Nisan.

21:40 But Our Lord died c. 3pm. So, lambs were sacrificed.

23:08 You are aware that the prophecy Our Lord fulfilled was a law by Moses about the passover lambs?

Numbers 9:12 has the closest correspondence.

Mark 14:12 - the disciples obviously had been with Jesus in Galilee, so they would also have begun Nisan one day earlier than the temple, if my hypothesis is correct.

25:02 It's not a question of "two different calendars" it is a question of one calendar depending on when the newmoon of Nisan is observed.

There was not any preset calendar determining in advance how many days the previous Adar or second Adar had.

In France a few years ago, perhaps about ten years ago, Muslims in the West of the country and Muslims in the East of the country disagreed on what day Ramadan began, because Ramadan still works like any Jewish month, including Nisan, did then.

Caesaraea Philippi is further West than Jerusalem, so Our Lord can have observed the New moon one evening earlier than the Temple did.

This would by the way, along with how I found it in Nestle Aland, add up to John the Gospeller having been in Jerusalem, as a Cohen, rather than in Galilee, which is the thesis of Jean Colson.

28:20 Your explanation is even better than mine, so, you have just about destroyed the idea behind Michael Caerularius' claim "Jesus must have used leavened breads" ...

I'm glad to be back in Catholicism, as revert from Orthodoxy!

Ciprian-Ionut Panait
but he did use leavened. Also the fact is not that relevant except for catholics since the bread is transformed into the body of Christ. I am sorry to hear you return to the catholic heresies

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Ciprian-IonutPanait "but he did use leavened."

According to what?

Ciprian-Ionut Panait
@hglundahl according to the gospels. In greek unlike english there are different words for leavened and unlevened bread. asumos for unleavened and artos for leaven. This was kept in some romance languages like romanian azime/lipie (as a note sometimes lipie is not used with the meaning of azime but is the correct meaning) versus paine but this is not present in english. In the gospels it says as the first day of the asumos was coming the disciples asked Iesus where they would eat the Pascha.... And then he had thanked, broken the artos and said: This is my body... Basically the last supper had happened the evening between 13 and 14 Nissan. 14 Nissan was considered the first day of the feast because in the morning they would eat or remove all artos from the house and then prepare for the actual feast including cutting the lambs. As a note most would fast from the morning meal to the evening one in this day. Catholics go against this belief insisting on using asumos. While not a mistake from the first centuries christians tried to separate themselves from jews that did not accept Iesus when it came to the celebration of Passover, starting from the date, the usage of artos and so on.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Ciprian-IonutPanait "asumos for unleavened and artos for leaven."

Sorry, but:
"ho azymos artos" is unlevened bread
"ho zymotos artos" is leavened bread

Azymos and Zymotos are adjectives, and artos is the word for bread in both cases.

In the time of Caerularios, "ho azymos artos" was shortened to "ho azymos" so as to have "azymos" feel like a noun. He projected this late usage into the much earlier texts of the New Testament.

Your history of the last supper is mangled. Here is a quote from the Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 26:

17 And on the first day of the Azymes, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the pasch 18 But Jesus said: Go ye into the city to a certain man, and say to him: the master saith, My time is near at hand, with thee I make the pasch with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus appointed to them, and they prepared the pasch.

This was obviously, at least to Jesus and His disciples, the 14th of Nisan. Preparing pasch = throwing out leavened bread to birds, and so on.

"While not a mistake from the first centuries christians tried to separate themselves from jews that did not accept Iesus when it came to the celebration of Passover, starting from the date, the usage of artos and so on."

It is probable that the use of zymotos artos came for the motive you mentioned, overriding what Jesus had actually done, and that in the region of the later Byzantine and Hierosolymite, perhaps also Antiochene patriarchies.

Alexandria and Rome, meanwhile, used azymos artos, which occasioned Caerularius to pretend the Latin usage was "a Jewish and Coptic/Monophysite heresy" ...

29:21 John not mentioning the dispute could be bc he was the host (as Jean Colson argued).

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