Friday, May 27, 2022

Crusader Pub took on Kent Hovind

Kent Hovind Reinvents Baptist History
14 Aug. 2021 | The Crusader Pub

I actually, while appreciating Kent Hovind on the YEC, have done response essays related to his imagination on "Catholics started Islam, because Alberto Rivera heard that in a private briefing from Augustin Bea" or on the Mass wine used by Our Lord on the First Mass.

0:35 Real, Norwegian, pronunciation (I'm Swede) is in fact: hoo-vin. I think the nd is decorative spelling for nn, where English at the end of a word would have n. Otherwise, add a d too.

6:05 I'd say Church history is the least good area of theologically relevant subjects for people like Hovind (or CMI and AiG, who at least have heard of St. Thomas Aquinas) ...

9:41 He believes, and so do some other guys, "Protestants" came from the 16th C. Reformation, but "Baptists" were always around, previously known as Lollards, Waldensians, even Albigensians according to some, Manichaeans, possibly, definitely Donatists and Novatians ... if this makes you want to feel like doing a facepalm, you feel free to do so.

So, the real Church, according to them, played leapfrog between widely different localities, never near universal, names, even doctrines, unless non-Baptist doctrines of some (like Albigensians on creation of material world, K H would not agree with these!) are put down to slanders by Inquisitors ....

If you feel like refreshing you by reading sth that has a somewhat closer resemblance to history, take a dose of Hal Foster (I mean, if Baptists can be Albigensians, why can't Vikings be King Arthur's allies against the Saxons?)

13:05 Actually, no.

When EO held synods in Iasi and Jerusalem in reference to Reformation and Counterreformation, there were some condemnations of RC (basically copied from Photius, Caerularius, Mark of Ephesus) repeated, but much more condemnations afresh, basically parallel to Trent, condemning Protestantism.

Seven Sacraments, Mass is a real Sacrifice, Mary is sinless and raised to Heaven, body and soul, and so on ...

14:25 Catholicism traditionally actually does say the Orthodox do have valid (though illicit) Eucharist, while Protestants do not.

15:42 Actually, I think the First Council of Toledo may have prefuted some Orthodox theology on "uncreated energies" ... it also directly stated (in an explanatory, not a liturgic creed, not identic to Nicene creed as said at Mass) they believed (in AD 400) that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son - it may be noted that less than 100 years earlier, a Spanish ecclesiastic had been close to St. Athanasius, whose creed (probably also explanatory, or even an explanatory essay, handed down to the Pope) also states the Holy Ghost proceeds from both.

The Spanish ecclesiastic, was it not someone like Hosius?

16:09 Orthodox use, obligatorily, leavened bread.
Catholics use unleavened in the Latin rite, but clearly leavened too in Eastern rites.

Caerularius considered unleavened bread as "Judaising heresy" (rubbed me the wrong way back when as a teen I was deciding between RC or EO, while definitely heading away from Lutheran), but more seriously, St. John says Christ was crucified when it was the Parascheve of the Jews, so Caerularius concluded, He can't have made a real Seder the eve before that, it would have been 24 h before the Jews were having their Seder.

I think, as "of the Jews" is narrator voice, as St. John as narrator (but not when the word is in Christ's mouth) uses "Jews" as non-Christians or even anti-Christians, and as the Lunisolar calendar back then was Empiric, the solution could be, Our Lord started Nisan 24 hours earlier than the Temple did. The other alternative, if Christ made a real Seder and Caerularius was wrong, Kaiaphas, as head of the Jewish Church (which was still the Church of God up to his implication in the Deicide), had given Christ a special permission to celebrate the Seder 24 h early. And He did so, with His disciples.

20:25 While six days could have as alternative one moment, the ideas of day age and gap theory are not viable with the dug up evidence (palaeontological or archaeological, whatever you prefer to call parts of it) and the idea of theistic evolution is when analysed on how Adam grew up either totally frivolous (if Adam had parents who taught him to speak, they were human, he was not the first human, his sin should not have had consequences, his marriage should not have been the model) or horrid (if Adam had progenitors with human anatomy and without human souls, these could not have spoken, could not have taught him to speak, and he would have been a feral child before he sinned).

25:14 Kent Hovind is in fact a pastor. He does represent the local congregation of a certain Baptist church in Pensacola. Or did, not sure it lasts after prison.

30:34 Please to note, the Flood, as historical event, is the symbol.

A human author like Guillaume de Lorris or Jean de Meun may tell a story through symbols chosen by them, but which did not happen.

God, as author of all history, can make sure the symbols He intends to put to important use are first of all real history. See thereon Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q I, and I think it was A 10.

41:30 You missed an important part.

Christ actually forbade us, not the pagan objects of worship, that went without saying, but the pagan mode of worship. And He did not say "do not use vain repetitions" - He said "do not stutterspeak" = as I read that, and as one can see if going to an actual pagan prayer in the Greco-Roman world, end of Velleius Paterculus, = do not start over and over again, to explain and make sure God really understands you.

Repeating a phrase to let it sink into your heart is sth very different and was not a part of the Greco-Roman prayer style.

You may object, it was and still is, part of the Hindu and Buddhist prayer style - but ...
  • Hindus and Buddhists, when very rarely referenced by Romans, as well as Jews and Christians, were considered as Dionysus-worshippers (earliest imperial bans on Christianity were quoting the text "sei quis uelitod bacchanal habuisse") and stood out as fairly odd to the mainstream of pragmatic and official Romen worship;
  • Hindus and Buddhists do not quite as much have the sense of getting their prayers heard when thus repeating them, so it still wouldn't fit the bill (Hindus also have prayers more Greco-Roman style, at marriages or wars and so on).

What does fit the bill is Velleius Paterculus taking precautions so the gods really hear him, by not omitting any title of any god that might be relevant to the request, which a Christian would have asked in the words "God bless Rome!"

46:58 Do we speak about marriage or about sex slaves?

Bc in St. Thomas' time, 12 was considered a marriageable age for a girl, by us Catholics. This was only changed after the times of St. Pius X.

If you mean the marriages are forced, well, that is bad, and it does make some of these marriages (when no consent was made after the force) invalid and the actual relation one which could be called sex slavery.

But I think Islam did start out with an even lower age of marriage for girls and at least some times girls were ordered to marry, given no choice. And I mean in the family of their prophet. Zayneb. First she was ordered to marry a freed slave Muhammed had adopted as son, then he was ordered to divorce her, then she married Muhammed herself. The adoptive father of her former husband.

48:01 Welcome to the world of Alberto Rivera.

He was a Jesuit, and he had a conversation with Cardinal Bea who in a confidential briefing told Alberto that the Vatican had started Islam. Alberto Rivera then eventually found Christ and became Evangelical. And he broke the seal of confidentiality. First, it seems the background for Rivera as a Catholic priest has failed to solidly materialise, but when I wrote a reply to Kent Hovind on that one, I did not know it, so, supposing the confidential briefing had really taken place, why would anyone take a confidential briefing as solid proof?

It seems, if this was the case, Alberto was not on par with St. Albert when it came to reasoning skills ... a confidential briefing about things about to happen the next few weeks, fine, they may materialise and you find out the confidential briefing was not bogus, this military really was involved in planning this operation and it works according to his plans and so on. But a confidential briefing about things centuries in the past? It's like believing Jesus was married because Teabing argued so to Robert Langdon and Sophie Neveu. In a private and confidential briefing ... no guarantees that Bea's briefing hasn't been similarily made up, albeit not for a work of fiction, but for a fraud.

In fact, when hearing this, I was not fond of Bea, since I thought he had been father confessor to Pius XII during the Humani Generis year 1950 - not so, there was another one - so I am less inclined to have bad feelings about Bea.

I can't find the statement right now on Introibo's blog, so I don't know if it was Guérard de Lauriers or, as I suspect, someone else, who was both confessor to Pius XII in 1950 and involved in sedeprivationist arguments (whether hypothetical or, as with de Lauriers, pointed at people like "John Paul II").


49:07 - a real look, by a real indulgence issued by Pope Leo X:


Citing the translation:

Pope Leo X, our most holy father and lord in Christ, grants by divineprovidence to each and everyone one of both sexes of the faithful inChrist who visit the church, From the evening of the first Sunday immediately proceeding the feast ofAscension up to the sunset of the Sunday itself, and from the first vespers of the vigil of the Ascension, that is the vespers of the Wednesday before the feast of the Ascension, up to the evening of the festivities, for those lending helping hands to the builders of the church and convent of Saint Mary of the sacred Carmelite order in Gorgona . The plenary indulgence removes punishment and guilt : both on behalf of the dead and on behalf of the living:
It is valid for those who are contrite and for those who have not made a confession and yet have the intention of confessing, and also for those absent
For absolution and for the exchange of all vows , if given in writing. And for absolution from all crimes and excesses. And also for failings and for which the apostolic seat has withheld the observance of the Lord’s Supper with the appointment of confessions, at the pleasure of the commissary and the delegation, if given in writing . With the power of substitution regarding all things most compresensively that can be seen in the copy of the apostolic brief, which are are left in the power of the Lord’s reverent vicar or prelate.
Translation by Armin Siedlecki, PhD and Sarah Bogue, PhD

So, actual "price list" : visiting a specific Church.


49:23 Wouldn't you also love to know the real price lists Pope Leo X made?

Like visiting a specific Church (situated in Rome) and confessing, communicating, praying for the Holy Father's intentions - plenary.

It actually states "for all crimes and excesses" presumably meaning that if you confess in conjunction with this indulgence, you can be absolved for things otherwise needing up to the Pope to deliberate on.

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