Wednesday, May 4, 2022

Seeing Tim Keller through Allie Beth Stuckey : Reflections on the Evil of Abortion, and Related Issues

Responding to Tim Keller’s Terrible Abortion Take | Ep 609
3rd May 2022 | Allie Beth Stuckey

4:23 I hope he's not the modern day C. S. Lewis, that's basically my ambition! OK, not totally, I am equally into Chesterton, if not more, hence Catholic.

It seems according to his own writings, he seemed to deny at least 2/5 fundamental Christian doctrines; Substitutionary Atonement and the Inerrancy of Scripture. By definition, people who deny these things are not regarded as even being within the realm of Christian.

( I.e. Lewis not Chesterton.)

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Remy4489 He had a problem about inerrancy, alas.

But he stood up for historicity of Gospels in an era when Gospel miracles were written down as mythical additions - not over where you are, but in his own time.

That Christ saved us on Calvary is certainly a definite part of Christianity, I will have to look up what exactly the Council of Trent defines, whether it is or isn't relatively close to your Substitutionary Atonement.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
Although there is more to be said about this teaching; Substitutionary Atonement is the teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Just suffered for us, the unjust, that He might bring us to God ( 1 Peter 3:18); that "He was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed." ( Isaiah 53:5 )

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Remy4489 I highly doubt that CSL would have disputed these formulations.

I think of more pointed ones, like "he bore the wrath for me" - like the Father emptying His wrath on the Son ...

@Remy4489 Here is Trent, session VI, chapter VII:


What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.

For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

16:16 Prior to certain immigrations in most places and certain revolutions in some more, idolatry was illegal.

22:39 God's own dwell app : 150 psalms.
The Blessed Virgin's : 3 * 50 + 3 Hail Mary in 15 mysteries from the Bible (and Tradition, for the last two).

Should take 15 - 20 minutes for a third of it, 45 - 60 for all of it.

34:03 I think there was a time when it was not so.

I think of prior to Roe vs Wade.

Would you consider that the late Lyndon LaRouche qualified as a pro-life (anti-abortion) Democrat?

36:48 Federal minimal welfare doles would not disincentivise work if there were federal or statewise minimal wages above these.

48:41 Actually, some of the syndical parts of the Democratic programme are real conservatism, if you look to England before the Reformation, or to France before the Revolution. Or to Germany before 1848, even 1870.

Guilds also maintained maximum number of people hired per company, maximal work loads for these, and minimal wages and material and educational and even spiritual benefits.

You couldn't work your apprentice or journeyman:

  • on Sundays
  • on holy days of obligation even if not falling on Sundays (like 12 days of Christmas or 6 days between Easter Day and White-Robe Sunday or feasts of Mary or Apostles or the patron saints of the country, the city, the guild)
  • on days when the Church required a fast, since the effort should not incite to breaking the fast.

The journeyman who was marrying your daughter and taking over the company was paid equally with the one who remained a journeyman for life. And with the journeyman of the other masters of the same guild in the same place. Free trade wasn't really a thing, except when there was a famine, and the town bought wheat on the free market instead of importing non-extant or inadequate harvest from surrounding farmers, and after the town bought wheat in those cases, it was distributed as a dole. For luxury imports, there was a toll to be paid to the town hall - which was run by the guilds.

41:45 Jesus, according to Isaiah 11 and Acts 8 actually is the founder of the Christian Palestinian nationality.

The Muslim Palestinian nationality mostly descends from it.

I e from Judaea, Samaria and Galilaea.

43:30 sth ... Catholics in France who basically agree with you are:
  • saying no to "separation of Church and State" because it not just tends to mean, but in France came from what you think it shouldn't mean
  • and calling for "separation of Lodge and State" (especially the very left wing and atheist type called Grand Orient lodges).

46:22 Would you agree that Christians in France should in June:
  • vote for totally banning abortion if any party offers that (doesn't seem to be the case)
  • if not for restricting abortion back from the infamous loi Gaillot (prolonged voluntary abortion from 12 to 14 weeks and abolished physicians' rights to refuse) and more
  • if not even that is available at least vote for abolishing "loi" Gaillot?

50:03 Here is an issue where Catholics and Protestants disagree.

Luther may have claimed that work is absolutely necessary for human dignity, and that beggary should have no wallets, that is one of the things we condemn him for.

Physical works is Adam's curse, like pangs of childbirth is Eve's. Infertile women don't go to Hell for being infertile, and even nuns don't go to Hell for chosing a position that's biologically infertile - as long as they pay for it by being virgins. Hence, there are also men who have not just dignity but even full dignity while not working.

I'm not one of them, I work as a writer, and my work is being robbed from right and from left, from Conservatives who believe my "excess leasure" and Leftists who believe my "right wing propaganda" should not be incentivised. I have 9600 + posts on my blogs, many of them essays under only my own copyright, this is a perfect recipe for printing lots of books - I said I considered myself as today's CSL or rather GKC, right? - and it's not getting done over people pretending my "refusal to see I need to work" qualifies me as a big child who never grew up or who reverted into childlike immaturity. But not being one of them doesn't mean I have nothing to lose over for instance a beggar monk or a real "celestial bum" (not meaning myself) getting even indirectly attacked.

50:18 Ungodly to create a society in which people must depend on the government?
I agree. Hence, what was not evil about workhouses being created in Elisabethan England, after Reformation attacked free begging, and tore down the "work and pray" houses called monasteries, while both enclosures and other "free market" stuff destroyed work for poor people in great numbers?

No comments: