Sunday, May 8, 2022

The Crusader Pub Correcting Ray Comfort

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: The Crusader Pub Correcting Ray Comfort · Great Bishop of Geneva!: Do Catholics Believe Penal Substitution?

Ray Comfort slanders Catholics, then THIS happens
25th April 2022 | The Crusader Pub

3:42 hear, hear!

[Context : Crusader Pub here had mentioned we actually believe what the Bible says.]

8:28 Actually, he hasn't. John 6.
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. [47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

Him Bike
That’s not what Ray said.
Ray said u have everlasting life because u have Christ in u. The verses u posted don’t say that

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Him Bike Read verse 50 again.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Him Bike By the way, if you look at the time signature, it's when Crusader Pub says Ray Comfort made something up on the spot, not about his own theology, but about the Catholic one.

So, I told Crusader Pub that, yes, we Catholics belive we do have everlasting life because of the Eucharist - and by the way, through the Eucharist we do have Christ in us.

Him Bike
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I think the point is
It’s not automatic.
Many Catholics receive the Eucharist and never go to confession and love with their girlfriend and so on. It’s not automatic. I think that is the point.
Maybe I’m splitting hairs.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Him Bike The point is, those cases while occurring are not the normal case, which Our Lord was talking about.

Him Bike
@Hans-Georg Lundahl ok I’m completely confused now.
My guess is
Ray told the lady u believe because you’re Catholic u have everlasting life in the Eucharist.
My guess is the video maker of this video says
We have to go to confession
We have to go to mass
We have to not cheat on our wife
We have to pay taxes.
I can’t be a mafia hit man
Go to mass half the time
And say I have everlasting life because
I receive the Eucharist.
Which is what Ray is implying.
You Catholics think u have everlasting life
BECAUSE u receive the Eucharist.
No it’s much more than that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Him Bike Yes, and, as a Catholic, I consider the maker of the video is wrong.

The Eucharist is the centrepiece of everything else mentioned.

A sacrilegious communion will not give you eternal life, but they are the exception, and Christ was in John 6 stating the rule. You avoid breaking commandments to be able to go to communion, and communion also makes you better at avoiding that breaking. But simply think the commandments without the communion would get you to heaven is like saying goodness without Christ will get you there.

Him Bike
@Hans-Georg Lundahl
I’m not talking about Christ
I’m not talking about the Eucharist
I’m taking about rays presentation

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Him Bike You have Christ in your heart through the Eucharist - in some cases through the reception in voto, and in some because you are preparing to actually receive, but anyway through the Eucharist.

If you are NOT talking about Christ, but ARE talking of the Eucharist, do you really believe the Real Presence? I do.

@Him Bike Sorry, misread, missed second "not" ...

8:55 The effects are incompletely stated.
If someone without own fault goes to Communion with a mortal sin on the conscience, it is also forgiven, like if you forgot it. There are occasions, rare but extant, where making an act of perfect contrition, a resulution to confess later, and going to Communion, will restore, not just increase, your union with Christ. Like if you are dying, there is a deacon who can give communion from the sacrarium in the tabernacle, but no priest who can absolve you.

9:14 in the cases of unbaptised, it's no doctrine they receive any grace, though in fact I did receive a Catholic communion (Novus Ordo, but priest arguably ordained before 1968 or by bishop consecrated before then) before I was baptised.

However, when it comes to restored justification, in exceptional cases one does indeed obtain the forgiveness of mortal sins with the Eucharist only.

The Crusader Pub
I appreciate your watching, and your feedback. I definitely recognize that there are exceptions and nuances to the more general statements we (I) make. I think that's part of what makes Catholicism difficult for many Protestants who seem to prefer a strict black/white dynamic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@The Crusader Pub Not when it comes to "all days" in Matthew 28:20, there they are so addicted to grey zones.

I would not think your statement was "more general" it was only more canonic. Theologically, it is correct to say the indwelling of Christ through the Eucharist is what gives us eternal life, since Baptism and Confirmation at the first justification, Penance and Extreme Unction at re-justifications, are directed to the Eucharist. If someone gets baptised, then dies before receiving the Eucharist, the fact of getting baptised means he received the Eucharist in voto, like St. Emerentiana arguably received baptism in voto.

10:19 As an ex-Lutheran, yes, Luther tried to avoid transsubstantiation, so have Anglicans often done historically, in the mainstream, but nevertheless taught Real Presence and split up with Zwingli over that one.

I have never, ever been a Zwinglian about the sacrament any more than Calvinist about individual election to get saved. Not when I was a Church hopping unbaptised near Evangelical, not when I was not practising much, and not when I was Lutheran.

10:50 Before you answer.

Ray's argument is like arguing against the Incarnation, and stating "who has seen me has seen the father" is just figurative, no claim to divinity, because, you see, God is still up there in Heaven, as He says so.

Yes, Our Lord did both claim divinity and that the Eucharist was His own literal body.

Jesus abides in the heart of the regenerated child of God
Nope, your wrong, He is not in the Eucharist, maybe if you read the gospels but you must ask Jesus to open your eyes to see His truth and open your ears to hear His truth

Then your heart will be pierced and you may be enlightened and become Born Again with the Spirit of our God Almighty
Amen seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be open...

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Gorthygara "Jesus abides in the heart of the regenerated child of God"

Correct so far, and as the Eucharist is the most important part of the [re]generation, your next sentence is wrong.

I feel no need to deny God already gave me the truth, while I was in Vienna, and the prayer you suggest me to say would be insincere and sinful.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
It's just that God does not dwell in a man made object and as the eucharist is a object made by a man then what the catholic church are doing is not God's way, nor is all the idolatry and worshipping statuses with repetitive praying goes against the teaching of the bible

Seek truth from God's Word written in the New King James Bible
They are many versof the bible also but when you seek with all your heart

God will write His Word on your heart and then you will not need another to teach you...

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Gorthygara "It's just that God does not dwell in a man made object"

Like bread, or wine ... what about a body born through nine months of gestation in flesh?

"and as the eucharist is a object made by a man"

Like the bread and wine were manmade objects until the Word came along?

"then what the catholic church are doing is not God's way,"

It would not be if bread and wine remained bread and wine. Check out the guys who believe they remain bread and wine and nothing else, and still bow down ... that's not us Catholics.

"nor is all the idolatry and worshipping statuses"

You believe there is a II commandment in verses 4 to 6 in Exodus 20. We believe the II commandment begins in verse 7. And "do not bow down to them" refers, a) to strange gods, b) to the natural things worshipped as gods by pagans (lightning, sun and moon, human fertility, agrarian fertility, fish fertility, sea safety or danger, realm of the dead).

"with repetitive praying goes against the teaching of the bible"

Matthew 6:7 says nothing about "repetitive prayer" in good Bible translations, like Douay Rheims or Monsignor Knox.

Douay Rheims : 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.
Knox : Moreover, when you are at prayer, do not use many phrases, like the heathens, who think to make themselves heard by their eloquence.✻
Footnote : The very rare verb which our Lord uses here probably means to ‘stammer’, to ‘hesitate’. The heathens used to address their gods by a series of titles, with the superstitious idea that the prayer would not be heard unless the right title was hit upon.

(I would myself have given as a very literalistic translation "stutterspeak" for "battologein")

"Seek truth from God's Word written in the New King James Bible"

God's word is not written, but faked in that version:

"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."

What heathen were doing that then and there? Buddhists and Hindoos already existed but not in the region. Islam didn't exist yet, nor Sikhism. The one kind of heathen who did already exist there used no such thing, they used the kind of holding speeches to God, like the footnote of Monsignor Knox tells. As a Latinist, I happen to know that. Velleius Paterculus is the last Roman historian preserved as such to us, of contemporary events, before a gap where we have only Gospellers and Josephus, before Tacitus resumes. His last phrase is a prayer, and Christian copyists may have shortened it:

// Let me end my volume with a prayer. O Jupiter Capitolinus, and Mars Gradivus, author and stay of the Roman name, Vesta, guardian of the eternal fire, and all other divinities who have p329 exalted this great empire of Rome to the highest point yet reached on earth! On you I call, and to you I pray in the name of this people: guard, preserve, protect the present state of things, the peace which we enjoy, the present emperor, and when he has filled his post of duty — 2 and may it be the longest granted to mortals — grant him successors until the latest time, but successors whose shoulders may be as capable of sustaining bravely the empire of the world as we have found his to be: foster the pious plans of all good citizens and crush the impious designs of the wicked.​ //

As you see, he is not repeating a short phrase, he is varying the thought in many phrases hoping one will be right ...

"They are many versof the bible also but when you seek with all your heart"

Already did, when I was younger, that's why I am a Catholic.

"God will write His Word on your heart and then you will not need another to teach you..."

He did that too.

14:18 It might include people who tell lies about Christ's Church, Crusader Pub, and it would also include people who adulterate the essence of the promises in

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
[James 5:16]

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
[1 John 1:9]

15:36 Are you sure Ray Comfort actually does believe in further purification after death, or further sanctification?

In a sense, even Catholics don't believe this, at least dogmatically.

If I were to state "no one gains any more merit after death, purgatory is just for paying a debt on insufficient acts of penance after forgiven mortals and insufficient detachment from venials" I would perhaps not state the full truth, but it would also not be a heretical statement. Unlike the statement "there is no purgatory" it wasn't condemned at Trent.

Also, he could believe in an instantaneous deliverance from all remainders of sin, not taking time, coinciding with death or judgement of the one that's going to Heaven.

20:46 By the way, you are getting one subscriber more here ...

[The Crusader Pub also is a Catholic internet content provider who wants to get a revenue from his content - in my case not through youtube, but through anyone willing to print and sell and send me voluntary royalties.]

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