Wednesday, September 13, 2023

The Magic Sceptic Tried to Debunk 5 Proofs for the Resurrection (First Half of the Video and Some More)

5 Proofs Of The Resurrection DEBUNKED - When Theists Fail
TheMagicSkeptic | 27 Aug 2023

5:46 I am going to believe in a literal resurrection because:
a, b, c etc make a fabrication, each unlikely to impossible and together impossible
and d, e, f etc make an honest mistake, each unlikely to impossible and together impossible.

6:05 Obviously the complete form of the argument will involve certain ones excluding fabrication (like "appeared to the women") and other ones excluding for instance hallucination (like "appeared to 500 at one go"). If both fabrication and mistake (including hallucination) is excluded, that leaves the truth of the proposition.

I'll grant you it was sloppy of him to not use the wording "part proof" and "next part of the proof" and so on - but his format is given as "one minute apologetics" ...

6:28 Some of the abduction stories seem to point to very real demonic activity.

They cannot overall be used to prove that any kind of mistake about one's own experience is possible. Some aren't.

6:49 No, they do not fail to appreciate it, it is just that one thing is eliminated at a time.

6:58 Matthew was written within about a decade from the events.

The idea it wasn't actually is a fabrication by 19th C Liberal Theologians (a k a Sceptics masquerading as Christians).

7:31 You are forgetting that St. Matthew was himself among the ten disciples (12 - Judas = "the eleven", that evening 11 - Thomas) who first dismissed the women and then saw for themselves.

7:58 There is a difference between "believing in dragons" in general and showing signs of a rational belief that X happened in your own neighbourhood.

"Dragons exist" is a maxim. I think they are most likely extinct, since the early Christian era, could be wrong about a millennium or one and a half ... but if you think you can find one in Africa, have at it ...

Your believing dragons exist is not a belief you hold about what happened in your own or your father's life.

I believe some Christian Brothers were too harsh as educators to your father, because you believe it.

8:44 Because God has put a veil on their hearts.

It will be removed. In the endtimes (and I think that's upcoming), Jews will become either Christians or apostates even from Judaism (apostatic as it already is since AD 33 and all that).

It's like asking "if the apostolic succession is truly in the NT, why are not all Protestants converting?" - well, some don't want to see what's there to see.

9:02 There are clear gematrias in ASCII giving 666 for WLADIMIRA (Wladimira = accusative and genitive of Wladimir, as a Pole hears the Russian name) and for VLADIMIRB (Vladimir B = Vladimir II, Putin being so both in the history of Moscow as capital, and in the history of his known family). And for BERGOGLIO. And for JRBIDENJR. And for the former Antipope BENEDETTO / PAPABENTO who also has a Greek gematria for Βενέδικτος that breaks down to 500 + 150 + 16 and yet some Catholics refused and refuse to see this as warning signals about these guys ... (they are so far too many guys to pinpoint only two - when Antipope Ratzinger was down, there was not much left before the recent monarch in Westminster and Balmoral was no longer an ENGELSKA or skotska in Swedish, feminine forms, but recently an ENGELSMAN or skotte was crowned - check out those in ASCII).

9:50 You are supposing religious communities have the kind of faculties of comprehension that persons have.

Well, if one of them is connected to a fully risen and ascended Christ, it has, but apart from that, no. A family of five has five wills and five reasons, not a sixth will or a sixth reason belonging to the family. One can speak of the family's will only if the five share the same decision and a family's reason if the five share the same opinion - but there is still no sixth will or reason upholding that decision or opinion, there is however a group pressure.

Jews are good at making group pressure real strong ...

10:17 The Jewish community is not an honest or reasonable person. Even if it consisted of honest and reasonable persons to the exclusion of all other personalities, a community is not a person, and even so it will exercise group pressure.


Isaias 54:3 For thou shalt pass on to the right hand, and to the left: and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and shall inhabit the desolate cities.

Conversion of Gentiles to some kind of Judaism actually is one of the things Catholic Christianity has been fulfilling for 2000 years, minus a decade.

By the way, Isaias 52 makes a transition from speaking to Sion (a community) to speaking about an individual:

12 For you shall not go out in a tumult, neither shall you make haste by flight: For the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will gather you together. 13 Behold my servant shall understand, he shall be exalted, and extolled, and shall be exceeding high.

So, next chapter, speaks about "my servant" (an individual) and not about "you" (the community Isaias was adressing).

Thanks for underlining how the surrounding chapters make the Jewish exegesis untenable!

Oh, just in case you considered "you" was already about an individual, it's the plural "you" ...

Quoniam non in tumultu exibitis, nec in fuga properabitis; praecedet enim vos Dominus, et congregabit vos Deus Israel.

The ending in exibi-tis and properabi-tis is like Spanish "-ais" (formerly "-a-des") and "vos" is like French "vous" - this is before the time of polite plurals. But what about "thy" in 54:3? Well, here we had "thou barren woman" in the previous two verses, it's a simile for the community.

So, if the community is both represented literally as "you" (like youse or y'all in some versions of English) and metaphorically as "Sion" / "barren woman" - does it make any sense to add yet another metaphor for the same community and call it "my servant" or does it make sense "my servant" is an individual? The latter.

12:31 "my servant" is not a personification of Israel or Juda, since the personification in the singular already exists in context - it's a female one. Sion / barren woman.

Those Antichristian rabbis just showed their incompetence in simple exegesis of a text ...

12:43 Our Lord called His Church "this generation" = His own seed.

12:47 Christians don't believe that Jesus had children ... physically.

I cannot exclude He had children juridically by levirate, the "brothers" mentioned being those closest of kin and therefore having the right / duty to levirate, and it is probable also a "widow" who was not literally formerly married to Him could be designated for such a purpose by family members who did not believe the Resurrection.

I have been aware of this possibility since a polemics Christians vs Jews, where Christians pointed to Jeremias being a holy man and living and dying celibate and Jews responding "a Jew cannot be celibate" - meaning not so probably they contest the tradition, as that a widow was designated for Jeremias.

13:10 It's not about Israel's seed, but that of the "my servant" ... who for the reason stated cannot be Israel.

14:18 One fulfilled prophecy could be a coincidence.

A half dozen to dozen specifically pointed out in the NT starts to be disconcerting.

About 100 fulfilled prophecies, like Catholic tradition says, well, you're taking on huge odds here.

15:38 "we don't know" vs "none of it would constitute evidence for God or for a Resurrection"

Do I sense an inconsistency?

Where's the inconsistency?

Hans Georg Lundahl
@TheMagicSkeptic You pretend there are lots of things we don't know about the universe, and yet you pretend an absence of God is not one of those.

15:55 "the Jews don't think so"

Well, they normally would think people will be getting back to life from their graves and death and even decomposition on the Day of Judgement.

THEY don't hold resurrection to be impossible for God; they just refuse to say God authenticated Jesus by one.

16:52 "the mere fact that a body couldn't be found"

27:62 And the next day, which followed the day of preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees came together to Pilate, 63 Saying: Sir, we have remembered, that that seducer said, while he was yet alive: After three days I will rise again. 64 Command therefore the sepulchre to be guarded until the third day: lest perhaps his disciples come and steal him away, and say to the people: He is risen from the dead; and the last error shall be worse than the first. 65 Pilate saith to them: You have a guard; go, guard it as you know. 66 And they departing, made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting guards.

28:11 Who when they were departed, behold some of the guards came into the city, and told the chief priests all things that had been done. 12 And they being assembled together with the ancients, taking counsel, gave a great sum of money to the soldiers, 13 Saying: Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him away when we were asleep. 14 And if the governor shall hear this, we will persuade him, and secure you. 15 So they taking the money, did as they were taught: and this word was spread abroad among the Jews even unto this day.

And "even unto this day" doesn't mean to 2023, it means to whenever Matthew wrote - like 30's or early 40's.

However, a fellow Swede but not fellow Christian to me, in his novel Barabbas, made a claim of someone seeing the body-snatching event.

If so much trouble was taken to state "he is dead, he is buried" there is in fact a real problem to explain why the body could not be found.

17:04 Our point is, sleeping guards are no very good proof of a body getting stolen.

How would a heavy grave-cave closing boulder be removed without waking the guards up?

17:09 "in an unmarked grave"

And just 50 days later one could not find any guy who recalled burying someone who:
  • was crucified
  • didn't have his legs crushed
  • had been mocked and therefore marked out during the crucifixion event ...

Any pretended implausibility about the resurrection is one from Atheists being very dogmatic on properties of a universe contrary to their dictum "we don't know" - I'll risk such implausibilities over the utterly staggering one of this very sudden incapacity to find out relevant facts.

17:20 "the Romans wanted to put him in an unmarked grave, so his grave didn't become a place of worship"

Two problems.

  • Romans had less problems with dead people getting honoured than with live potential generals;
  • when they had made this calculation, they didn't recalculate when they saw this backfired to a resurrection story?

17:37 You are reading Nero's attitude to Peter back into Pilate's to Jesus.

A man had perhaps 500 disciples overall, perhaps 1000, perhaps even 2000. He was dead and couldn't lead an army. It was in a country which was anyway exempt from a grain of incense to the Emperor's genius, so Christians refusing that was no more of a challenge then and there than Jews refusing it then and there.

In Rome, three decades later, it became a challenge. Because Jews had a specific permission, and Nero found out from Poppaea that Christians weren't considered as Jews by Jews. "Oh, they haven't this specific permission from us?" Plus the kind of reputation of being self chosen social outcasts that Jews had in the time of Horace, Christians were taking up the mantle. Ideal scape goats for the fire in Rome. Which also hadn't happened yet.

17:55 "they may very well have burned the body"

In Judaea? Risking an uprising for what any Jew would consider sacrilegious in the high season between Pesakh and Shavuot?

There were limits on Jewish pragmaticism, even when it came to what they thought of as enemies.

The fact Pilate was able to be put pressure on has been ridiculed - he was so ruthless, right? - but he was not like Stalin, he was like a local commissar of Stalin who had to make sure he didn't lose Stalin's favour. If he provoked an uprising, even if then he put it down with ruthless efficacity, he was likely to get degraded by Rome and have his carreere ruined.

18:25 Let's entertain it thoroughly then.

The story was made up. It follows, it was made up at a specific point in time posterior to when it was supposed to have happened (at least hours or days posterior to it).

It was made up early. It follows it was made up when the contradictions with the still fresh facts were too glaring to get anyone fooled.
It was made up late. It follows some community formed c. 60 AD had to be duped they were really just continuing seamlessly a community that had existed for decades.

Now, youtube would certainly allow you to make a video and date it 12 years back.

e Pulls A Card Out Of His WHAT!? Young Magic Dara On TV With Keith Barry
TheMagicSkeptic | 13 June 2011

When we trust your youtube channel existed 12 years ago, we trust a mechanic memory which can be manipulated.

But Peter and Paul in Rome had to trust the appearance of personal memories that cannot be manipulated by pushing buttons on a keyboard.

Or you claim Peter and Paul are myths too. How did Clement of Rome convince his earliest followers Peter and Paul had existed a few decades earlier? AND that the new adepts who actually came first came into a community pre-existing at the place?

19:02 Given unmarked graves to prevent veneration.

Perhaps you think of this story:

"Hess was found dead on 17 August 1987, aged 93, in a summer house that had been set up in the prison garden as a reading room; he had hanged himself using an extension cord strung over a window latch. A short note to his family was found in his pocket, thanking them for all that they had done. The Four-Power Authorities released a statement on 17 September ruling the death a suicide. He was initially buried at a secret location to avoid media attention or demonstrations by Nazi sympathisers, but his body was re-interred in a family plot at Wunsiedel on 17 March 1988; his wife was buried beside him in 1995."

"Hess's grave in Wunsiedel became a destination for neo-Nazi pilgrimage and for demonstrations each August on the anniversary of his death. To put a stop to such pilgrimage, the parish council decided not to allow an extension on the grave's lease when it expired in 2011.[179] With the eventual consent of his family, Hess's grave was re-opened on 20 July 2011. The remains were cremated and the ashes scattered at sea by family members. The gravestone, which bore the epitaph "Ich hab's gewagt" ("I have dared"), was destroyed.[180] Spandau Prison was demolished in 1987 to prevent it from becoming a neo-Nazi shrine.[175]"

There is a problem ... this kind of acts came in a culture where death is nearly "infinitely" less sacred than it was to Romans.

Sure, they could live with desacrating a corpse during and after a cross. Because the crucified by definition was a slave and subhuman. But once a grave had been made, this was no longer possible to them. It would be about as inconceivable to them, as it would to you to take hire in a Christian brothers school and really hard whip someone's fingers if he didn't know the Catechism.

19:12 KGB being behind the destruction of Hitler's body is definitely a case in point. KGB had a very different view on death compared to the old Romans.

19:29 Do you have destroyed graves from as far back as 1600?

Let's not take the trial of Formosus - that one was done very openly and ceremonially, so that no one could miss it. Plus it involved a very Jewish and Christian attitude on certain people not belonging in a decent burial site.

19:43 Bodies being stolen ... how come Galen did not make his anatomy from human bodies?

Why were so many bodies stolen to anatomists in the 16th C.? Because Galen's anatomy was unreliable. And it was unreliable because ...

"Galen's interest in human anatomy ran afoul of Roman law that prohibited the dissection of human cadavers since roughly 150 BCE.[52] Because of this restriction, Galen performed anatomical dissections on living (vivisection) and dead animals, mostly focusing on primates.[8] Galen believed that the anatomical structures of these animals closely mirrored those of humans. Galen clarified the anatomy of the trachea and was the first to demonstrate that the larynx generates the voice.[53][54] In one experiment, Galen used bellows to inflate the lungs of a dead animal.[55][56] Galen's research on physiology was largely influenced by previous works of philosophers Plato and Aristotle, as well as from the physician Hippocrates. He was one of the first people to use experiments as a method of research for his medical findings.[57] Doing so allowed him to explore various parts of the body and its functions."

Just to show once again that no, Romans were not likely to have destroyed the body. Putting Renaissance body-snatchers into Ancient Rome is about like putting the execution of Charles I back into Medieval feudalism.

People lie? Sure. But you have to be precise about who lies to whom about what and what the liar has to gain from lying ...

20:00 We have no demonstrable example of resurrection - if you discount that of Jesus. And the three corpses revivified by the corpse or relics of St. Martin. And the boy raised after falling from a window in the presence of a medical practitioner, Luke. Or those raised by St. Vincent Ferrer, more recently. St. Francis of Paola was one century after that. He died 1506.

The blog post lists:

"After the Apostles, the Saints continued to follow Jesus’ command to “heal the sick and raise the dead.” The excellent book “Saints Who Raised The Dead” (Tan Books, Father Alfred J. Hebert S.M., 2004) documents over 400 true stories of resurrection miracles in the lives of the Saints. Some of the many Saints listed in this book are: St. Francis of Paola, Venerable John Baptist Tholomei, St. Bernardine of Siena, St. John Capistrano, St. Francis of Paola, St. Joseph of Cupertino, St. Peter of Alcantara, St. Dominic, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Philip Neri, St. Paul of the Cross, St. John Bosco, Blessed James Salomoni, St. Agnes of Montepulciano, Blessed Constantius of Fabrino, Blessed Sadoc and Companions, Blessed Mark of Modena, Blessed Ceslas, Blessed Augustine of Bugela, Colomb a of Rieti, St. Rose of Lima, St. Martin de Porres, St. Francis Solanus, Marianne de Jesus of Quito, Blessed Sebastian of Apparizio, St. Bernard of Abbeville, St. Stanislaus of Cracow, St. James of Tarentaise, St. Cyril of Constantinople, St. Peregrine, St. Philip Benizi, Bl. Peter Armengol, Blessed Eustachio, St. Gerard Majella, St. Charbel Makhlouf, St. Padre Pio, St. Margaret of Cortona, St. Felix of Cantalice, St. Rose of Viterbo, St. Pacific of San Severino, St. Hyacinth, St. Louis Bertrand, St. Francis Xavier, St. John Francis Regis, St. Andrew Bobola; St. Francis Jerome, Brother Antony Pereyra, and St. Patrick, the Apostle of Ireland, to name just a few. But here we shall focus on just one of the many Saints who raised people from the dead- St Vincent Ferrer."

For further documentation, “Saints Who Raised The Dead” (Tan Books, Father Alfred J. Hebert S.M., 2004)

Or, St. Martin de Porres is even more recent. Like St. John Francis Regis. Dying 1639 and 40.

21:05 "group hallucinations"

Is this really documented in "folie à deux"? I doubt it.

I looked it up :

"Il désigne une situation clinique ou à la faveur d'un confinement particulier au contact d'un sujet délirant, un deuxième sujet adopte ce même contenu idéique délirant."

Ooops - no. It's not group hallucinations, but group delusions.

22:01 I think you were a few minutes earlier in the video saying that it was very unlikely martyrs would be martyrs for a lie they made up ...

so, how about this:

  • the 500 is not a lie, because St. Paul was willing to die for the fact he had heard their witness, as for his own view of the Risen Jesus
  • AND it cannot be a hallucination either, for the reason you just stated

So, in order to make it a fraudulent claim, you would need to dispute the Pauline authorship of First Corinthians.

Part of the problem would be that not even Bart Ehrman does that, but part of the problem is, how do you even get people to identify a writing with a martyred author while the real author goes unmartyred?

22:08 "do you have any independent evidence of that fact"

Independent of the text or of the community?

Of the text, yes, it is attributed to St. Paul who is said to have died a martyr. In other words, a good argument he didn't make it up. Plus it is a very plausible explanation why there was a fairly big Christian community on Pentecost day and it grew bigger over the follow up.

Independent of the community? No, these things we know from the Christian community, we don't have a Nero stating "today I had a Paul from Tarsus beheaded outside the city wall" or a Tacitus stating that Paul was an orator (speaker) of renown who also wrote famous letters, like two to the Corinthians. But then, most historic facts we only know from the community concerned.

Do you doubt that Joseph Smith made a claim to have deciphered Golden Plate inscribed with Reformed Nephitic? No, I don't think so. But he died a quasi-martyr if you will for polygamy, not for writing the book of Mormon. So, his claim would be fraudulent, but it is still only known from their community, and yet we believe he made this probably fraudulent claim. Without any evidence independent of the community.

22:27 "you still wouldn't have enough to believe that a guy came back from the dead!!!!"

Candid admission of your anti-miraculous bias, thank you!

Some guys say "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" while some go with the more commonsense, extraordinary claims need as adequate evidence as any other claims.

22:32 "it would still be more likely that the guy faked his death, and was walking around, and that's why"

I think you have some sympathy for guys like Houdini, but, can you tell me, how common is it for Houdini's to actually escape executions while leaving both friends and foes under the impression he was in fact executed?

As a stage magician, could you explain that type of trick?

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