Monday, December 4, 2023

Sharing on Palestinians and Herzl

Zionism: The Secret Evidence Israel Tried to Bury
Rational Religion | 3 Dec. 2023

Adding a few comments on detail:

4:57 Would you agree that this would be a fair reform?

  • Jews, Christians, Muslims have far reaching autonomy, each of them under its own authority in internal affairs all over the territory
  • the territory remains undivided. A Muslim having trouble with another Muslim in Tel Aviv goes to a kadi who is named by ... Hamas (if it ever gets peaceful)? Palestinian Authority? King of Jordan? A Jew in Gaza obeys an authority like ... Mea Sheamir? Knesset? Whatever ... a Christian obeys, perhaps the Mayor of Bethlehem. Intercommunitary conflicts between two communities are referred to the third one.
  • aliyah extends to Palestinians as well as Jews, and for Jews is reopened to Christians and (if any) Muslims.
  • Conversions are not banned the way Knesset banned them, but are regulated for transfer of community belonging.

Bonus point: exile for anyone who has perpetrated atrocities on either side since 6th of October, if they can be sent to a state where they are not punished apart from this exile, I have suggested Italy, since villages are there dying from old age and childlessness.

11:45 Ben Gurion was in fact not speaking exclusively of Jews. Judaean peasants .... wait, were the Judaean peasants Jews and the Judaean nomads Christians?

I know for a fact there were nomad tribes in Palestine around the time of Omar.

A monastery reported that some of those, formerly Christians, gave them good and bad news. Bad news first. "We are now Muslims, we are still your friends" ... you can read it in Derwas Chitty, if you like.

A thing which was not totally respected any more from authorities by the time the first Crusade was sent, among other things, to succour the remaining Christian Palestinians against Seldjuk overlords.

But spontaneously, I think the majority of the Judaeans were Christian rather than Jewish before Omar came.

Another hint even Christians had Old Testament ancestry is that when Chosroes II invaded, before Heraclius threw him out, lots of Christians "returned to the Jewsih faith of their ancestors" (or rather thought that apostatising to Judaism was such a return) as Derwas Chitty put it.

12:10 The Paraclete was definitely not the Periclyte!

The promise of the Paraclete was fulfilled on Pentecost day.

12:31 "the Romans paid a lower rate of tax than the Muslims"

Was Omar promising them lower taxes at the moment?

13:09 The Palestinian Aramaic existed in three dialects, Christian, Jewish, Muslim.

Muslim Palestinian Aramaic was replaced with Arabic first, I think 10th C. or something.

Christian Palestinian Aramaic was replaced with Arabic only after/during the Countercrusade, by men like Baybars ... a man who also invented putting a local pilgrimage to coincide with Christian Easter, so as to have armed Muslims ready when Christian pilgrims came, to prevent further Crusades (up to World War I, if you like to think of English victory in the Orient that way).

14:05 The original Jews and Christians who were there in the time of Titus (with Christians fleeing into Jordan and then coming back, after founding the Church in Pella, a k a Al Fahl).

Excellent point.

Some people have never learned the difference between "Arab" and "Mustariba" ... the Palestinians (except for Shareefs, obviously) being the latter category, as is all of the Arab speaking population of the Levant. (I suppose the term is only North of the Peninsula).

14:56 "obviously it would be mistaken"

Reference to some Muslim immigrants in the 1860's, from Algeria and from Circassia, replacing some Mitsrahi Jews who had been chased away by the Turkish governor ....

16:45 All three communities have intermingled.

Christians with Pilgrims like Egeria and St. Jerome, though neither of them settled, perhaps. And later with Crusaders.
Jews (especially outside Mitsrahi and Persian communities, neither of which seems the most pumped up about Zionism) with converts from Spain / North Africa / Turkey and France / Germany Poland.
Muslims with the Shareefs and other men of Omar, and with the Algerians and Circassians in the 1860's (plus a few more arriving to the mandate zone for work, but those were not fellahin).

17:14 "cause the Bible"

No, cause a misreading of.

Prophecies about children of Israel returning from all of the world are explicitly mentioned as fulfilled on Pentecost day in Acts 2. The first Pope said so, when the Paraclete inspired him. (The real one, not the Periclyte).
Isaiah 11 was fulfilled centuries before the Muslim invasion, the Greater Israel is primarily the Christian Palestinian / Jordanian community of the area, and secondarily the Jewish (Mitsrahi) and Muslims ones of the area ...

18:25 The scientific work was not even questioning Biblical dogma.

The Bible says things that some misinterpret when totally changing the context.

Isaias 45:7 has been misinterpreted by Calvinists. The Catholic commentary (by Challoner, an Englishman persecuted for Catholicism in that time) says:

"Create evil": The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

The scientific work was explaining that the dogma for instance in 1 Esdras (Ezra) 9:12 is already fulfilled by Palestinians, without Zionism.

So, it was not questioning Biblical dogma, but questioning a pseudo-Biblical heresy.

20:08 Did they say "genetically identical" of all Jews or of Mitsrahi Jews?

I think for instance Ashkenazi Jews do have lots of genes from elsewhere ... like Central European. I e not as obviously from Judaea, Samaria and Galilaea 2000 years ago.

21:06 You spoke of a Muslim identity superseding the Jewish one for 90--95 %.

Sorry, first there had been a Christian one, and back in the 19th C they were still perhaps just below a quarter, here is a Swedish voyager* from back then:

"Folkmängden, som under judarnas sjelfständighetstid ansetts vara omkr. 5 mill., men sannolikt aldrig öfversteg 2 1/2 mill., är nu blott omkr. 650,000, hvaraf minst 3/4 muhammedaner."

Population down to 650 thousand, 3/4 Mahometans (as we traditionally refer to Muslims), which leaves mainly 1/4 Christians. They had obviously decreased since Baybars, so the Christian population had been far higher back in the time of Omar's conquest and its immediate aftermath.

21:28 Most who rejected Islam called themselves Christians, sometimes even Romans, and not Jews.

Also a fair portion of continuity ethnically from the Old Testament. And far exceeding just 5—10 %.

He’s talking about the Palestinian Muslims not calling themselves Jews. It’s all nomenclature. They did not actually negate the presence of Palestinian Christians. As a whole, nothing has been taken away from their argument.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@rehan3600 I was speaking of the percentages.

22:00 It's actually the whiter skin that's a mutation. Either way, I think you look like people from Marseille or Italy, which is pretty much what I exact people mostly looked like in Palestine 2000 years ago.

26:49 The one group that's both ethnically and religiously right are Christian Palestinians, esp. if they are Roman Catholic.

Neither Jews, nor Muslims accept the full and undiluted Covenant of Jesus Christ.

So, as long as they cannot both be got out of the country, which I think Palestinian Christians would not want, my view is both should stay in the country, and stay with the possessions they had before the Naqba, and perhaps some other restorations too.

27:48 Even better. Are SEMITIC genes Antisemitic!

* Nordisk familjebok / 1800-talsutgåvan. 12. Nådemedlen - Pontifikat / col. 611—612

No comments: