Friday, December 15, 2023

The North-German Problem

The German Problem
Jordan B Peterson Clips | 12 Dec. 2023

3:52 US does not embrace racism ... on the Union level, please!

But US had states.

Some of them were very racist in 1933—1945. I am not sure that Gipsies suffered less prior to the war, but Jews pretty certainly did, compared to Black and Indians in certain US states back then.

3:52 Rule of the law ... well, sorry, but Germany did NOT abandon rule of the law.

When a Catholic bishop suffered persecution, it was for an offense to the road code, a purported one. Harrassing a group by mis-applying laws is very clearly not the same as breaking away from laws altogether.

Every step US has taken and individual states in the US have taken to strengthen psychiatry have been steps away from the full ideal of the rule of the law, but they have been compartmentalised steps, not a wholesale breaking away from it. The exact same thing was true of NS Germany. Actually, certain types of sponsorships, like Lebensborn (in its more usual application of actually saving children of unwed German mothers) have a great similarity with certain social programmes in the US.

If Jordan Peterson back before he took up psychology thought Germans "broke away from the rule of the law" ... seeing certain scandals about Clintons and Bidens, I would say that is not so more in Germany than in the US. He listened to victors' propaganda.

3:52 Democracy? So.

Giving the one man a doubling of powers from those of Chancellor only to those of Chancellor + President was probably the least bad part of Hitlerism. "Checks and Balances" are not the essence of a democratic society if you mean rule of the people by the people, and still less the essence of rule of the law.

3:59 Eugenics were far more available in US and UK and Canada than in Italy or Austria. They were practised by Swedes. They were planned by Lenin and only stopped, in the nick of time, by Stalin and Lysenko.

Fascism isn't Eugenics. Hitler combined Fascism from Italy, which had no Eugenics, with Eugenics from Sweden which had ... I will not say, no Fascism, but a very much more peaceful Fascism (some parts of the Social Democrats were close to the Nysvenska Förbundet, the least legal part of the activities of which was the probable elk and deer poaching and illegal fishing of the member Cederhöök — his novel persona Åsa-Nisse clearly is a poacher, and is presumed to be calqued on the author).

What I condemn, is Eugenics. What I don't condemn is Fascism.

If you strip away the differences between NS, Fascismo, Falange, Estado novo de Portugal, Austrofaschismus and only retain a core, it's not Eugenics, not even street fighters (even if common to most, not so to Portugal), not camps for deviants or ethnicities (absent from Spain), not secret police (absent in Austrofascism, and in Italy prior to 1926), but only:
  • opposing both Communist expropriation and Capitalist exploitation
  • believing this peace of the factions imposed by industrialism is more important than checks and balances of a many party or two party system with factions competing for power.

Given how those checks and balances were put into place in the UK, namely by very radical breaks away from the rule of law, I don't see how decency depends on upholding them against all and any who prefer a more monarchic (effectively monarchic) functioning of the state.

5:44 "an ability to tap into demonic strains in German culture"

If you mean Prussianism is demonic, I agree. That makes Bismarck, not Hitler, the key ingredient.

Bismarck faked the Emms Telegram, I think not by entirely rewriting the telegram received, but by selective rewriting of a detail. He tricked the Germanies, at this time without the Holy Roman Empire since 1806, into believing in a French attack. A little earlier he had at one point said "we want Schleswig Holstein to be a German state, like Prussia and Austria" and so tricked Austria into making war on Denmark, and after that, still before 1870, he turned his back on the deal.

"No, of course we want Schleswig Holstein as an integral part of Prussian Kingdom, it was after all our Karl Klinke" (a kamikaze) "who sacrificed his life, and this many state solution is pretty cumbrous and a bit outdated!"

Bismarck was a nihilist, believing in nothing but power, and to some degree order, sth power should serve, and military discipline, a way the power has someones serving it, he was a great fan of the rule of law among Germans, while having no qualms to arbitrarily put Catholics outside the law for being in obedience to the Pope, much like the French III Republic did. But apart from that, he believed in nothing, perhaps least of all his own word. In a sense, Hitler was kind of to Bismarck (and to foreign Eugenicists) what Chaplin's Hünckel was to Hitler. Except he played it out in real bloodshed.

6:04 "Hitler capable of displacing Christian Ethics" — is this a joke?

Northern Germany, non-Catholic parts of Germany, hadn't had Christian Ethics since perhaps even the time of Kant.

In the 18th C I believe exactly one Catholic priest was martyred in Europe. OK, Continental Europe, not sure of the situation in England. He was hung by Frederick the Great, I recall on his personal orders, for having heard and for having refused to reveal, the confession of a German Catholic who had deserted the Prussian army because he had qualms about shooting on German Catholics in the Austrian army. And who had been caught and said that that priest had heard his confession. St. Andrew Faulhaber, pray for us!

The late 18th C. had been a huge attempt, hugely successful, by Northern Germany to displace Christian ethics and indeed Christianity. Evangelische Kirche is as un-Christian as United Church of Canada. Belief in Biblical miracles — out. Belief in integral inspiration of the Scriptures — out, notably through the preference of Marcan priority as a way to polemise against "later accretions" in the Gospel of Matthew. And, obviously, belief that people need to conform to the Ethics of the Gospels — equally out. In the matrilinear line from Barbara of Cilli, at 1920 or sth, I find a woman married at 21, for a long time, who has two children. Obviously not a fan of "Catholics breeding like rabbits" a k a respecting Genesis 1:28.

And, not unlike how US culture could get into Germany after 1945, Prussian culture could get into Austria after 1866. That involved Hitler's history teacher.

6:34 I can make the case the "death of God" (Nietzschean, not Calvarian sense) cascades most effectively through UK and Commonwealth with Scandinavian powers and Prussia as a second.

The reason why France had so much more draconic measures in the III Republic against Catholicism than Bismarck had, is that the call to abandon Christian Ethics met with so much more opposition in Paris than in Berlin.

Meanwhile, England had overturned Christian Ethics with the public (though privately ineffective) repudiation of Maria Fitzherbert by George IV and his putting the law of the land above Mark 10:6 with context. Canada and US were very wildly overturning Christian Ethics by the treatment of Plains Indians in the 1860's and by the treatment of Indians and Esquimaux in Residential Schools, 1890 to 1970's. The colonial British élite were all agog about how Mahabharata proved myths (including heroic legends) were fairy tales and how exciting and interesting the spirituality of Bhagavad-Gita was compared to the Sermon on the Mount. I am doing the reverse. I hope Krishna, whom I consider a real man, never pronounced such words, never made himself to a false God, and I think Mahabharata proves an independent memory of the conditions of Genesis 4 and Genesis 6, contaminated by idolatry, but still having an outline reminiscent of the Hebrew truth.

That, not Hitler's personality, was where Deutsche Christen ultimately came from.

"Bonus war der wichtigste theologische Autor des Diederichs-Verlages.[3] Um der bürgerlichen Entkirchlichung zu begegnen, forderte er die „Germanisierung des Christentums“ als die Vollendung der lutherischen Reformation[4] und die Rückbesinnung auf das „urtümlich germanische Element unserer Religion“. Seit jungen Jahren fasziniert von den nordgermanischen Sagen, sah Bonus in der germanischen Literatur das Hilfsmittel schlechthin, um ein „deutsches Christentum“ zu etablieren. Nach der Veröffentlichung der dreibändigen Sagensammlung Isländerbuch (1907), die zu seinem größten literarischen Erfolg wurde, erschien 1911 mit Zur Germanisierung des Christentums der erste Band der geplanten vierbändigen Reihe Zur religiösen Krisis.[5] Seine religiöse Konzeption orientierte sich an Paul de Lagarde und Friedrich Nietzsche."

I would say the actual movement Deutsche Christen does have sth to do with Hitler, when it excludes Calvino-Modernist-Semi-Lutherans of same general outlook on the Gospels (a bit like that of Rabbi Mendelson on the Torah) if they have Jewish ancestry. But he was only encouraging what was already there since Arthur Bonus and Julius Bode:

"Arthur Bonus propagierte 1896 eine „Germanisierung des Christentums“. Max Bewer (1861–1921) behauptete in Der deutsche Christus 1907, Jesus stamme von deutschen Söldnern im römischen Heer in Galiläa ab und seine Verkündigung sei von „deutschem Blut“ beeinflusst. Er folgerte daraus, die Deutschen seien die besten Christen unter den Völkern, die nur durch das materialistische Judentum an der Entfaltung ihrer Geisteskräfte gehindert seien. Julius Bode (1876–1942) dagegen sah die Christianisierung der Germanen als Aufzwingen einer „undeutschen“ Verstandesreligion, die dem germanischen Fühlen wesensfremd geblieben sei und von der es sich befreien müsse.[1]"

That is, he preferred a "vital" and "non-intellectual" Christianity over Christianity as it had been, and sought to free Germany from it. Both were Protestant pastors. Both were not very impressed by Hitler. Both had roots in Schleiermacher and in a kind of woke romanticising of pre-Christian as pre-Colonial religions, which started with the Black Legend deploring how Cortez and Pizarro brought Christianity to the Americas. Columbus has later been added to the list. And that Black Legend has more roots in Raleigh than in any German of the 16th C.

So, demonic strains in German culture? No. Demonic strains in imports from the worst that England and US had to offer.

When you speak of Checks and Balances, you heap glory on the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688. In England, William III was indeed no spiller of blood. In Scotland, the Glencoe massacre leads back to William II, not to Clan Campbell, which was only used, not to say abused, as very lowly means for his racist and demonic programme of wiping out Highlanders. Ireland also has less fond memories of him.

Here is a taste of the paranoia that fed that demon spirit:

"Conversely, for the Williamites in Ireland, the war was about maintaining Protestant rule in Ireland. They feared for their lives and their property if James and his Catholic supporters were to rule Ireland, nor did they trust the promise of tolerance, seeing the Declaration of Indulgence as a ploy to re-establish Catholicism as the sole state religion."

Even with Catholicism as sole State religion, this does not mean it would have been the only legal one. Catholics only and Inquisition is not a Catholic universal rule, it was a Catholic measure originally of emergency, and is not a part of the duty of every Catholic politician, unlike what the Williamites believed. They could have half an excuse in the Edict of Fontainebleau. But those rich migrants (as they were more than once) were not a boon for all the countries they came to. Rockefeller was of this origin. They obviously acerbated the Williamite angers and fears on Ireland.

7:18 Totally agree. (Nolte, Dr. Niall Ferguson).

But Bolshevism, like Hitlerism, hankers back to Prussia, as Chesterton pointed out.

11:52 "Karl Gustav Jung (7 September 1795 in Mannheim – 12 June 1864 in Basel) was a German-Swiss medical doctor, political activist, professor of Medicine at the University of Basel, administrator and freemason."

That was the grandpa of the man whose analysis you praised.

"Carl Gustav Jung wurde 1875 in Kesswil im Kanton Thurgau, einem Dorf am Schweizer Ufer des Bodensees, geboren. Er war der zweite Sohn des reformierten Pfarrers Johann Paul Achilles Jung (1842–1896) und seiner Frau Emilie (1848–1923), Tochter des Basler Antistes Samuel Preiswerk, in Kesswil."

Jungs own father, Johann Paul Achilles, was of the precise type of Progressive Protestantism which led to Deutsche Christen.

15:01 Prosperity, Propaganda, Coercion.

The precise recipe forming the English Protestant establishment.

1688. Anyone can propose anything and get to vote about it, unless it's treating Catholics and Gaels as actual fellow men and not as Orcs or Amalecites.

It's also part of what's wrong with Sweden today.

Though, in Sweden, it's not a question of formally saying such and such groups should have no rights, it is more like pretending "very religious people" are mad and need protections beyond what the law provides for. Or that their children need them.

See also:

Differences between Austrians and Germans
yourtruebrit | 20 Febr. 2022

I could add, the first Battle of Buzenval, I obviously prefer the Bréton and Catholic Louis-Jules Trochu over the Prussian and Protestant Hugo von Kirchbach (not sure if he was personally in command there or not) during the Siege of Paris. von Kirchbach was also successor of Karl Friedrich von Steinmetz who was not exactly on my side at Königgrätz.

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