Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: July 2024

Monday, July 29, 2024

Would to God He'd stayed an Artist!

He could have done so well as a minister of culture in a government by Brüning!

Yes, I mean the guy whom many wish for, he would not have strayed into politics. He had some taste in art:

why you were forced to learn the recorder in school
Answer in Progress | 26 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyZY1dq5BFc

Many love the recorder he promoted, who would not be caught dead in the uniform of his party (though not for style reasons)./HGL

Sunday, July 28, 2024

Prince Caspian

New blog on the kid: Tolkien's Politics · I Thought That Decree Was by Franco · Why I am Not Capitalist or for Unrestricted Free Market · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolkien Supported Franco's Side in the 36—39 War · Prince Caspian · Tolkienophobes, Buzz Off! · Tolkienophobe Identified? · J D Vance-Phobes? · Crooks' (or Yearick's?) Body Gone · Sharing On The Shooting

Question: Why is Prince Caspian often considered the weakest book in the Chronicles of Narnia series? What do you think?
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Prince-Caspian-often-considered-the-weakest-book-in-the-Chronicles-of-Narnia-series-What-do-you-think/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl: avid reader back when I had better sleep than now; 28.VII.2024
Xth LD after Pentecost: I disagree.

Spontaneously, there is no weakest book.

For my own part, I think important lessons about war, politics, colonialism can be learned from it, as well as one or two lessons about standing up for a truth no one believes in.

The setup is very classic, an heir to the throne threatened by an older relative, an uncle being the threat (as in Hamlet[1] ) is slightly milder than when the own mother or grandmother was it (for Orestes[2] and for King Joas[3]).

Miraz’ régime is a very astute study in dictatorship, spanning murder of a previous king[4], power grab, gradual escalation of claims, elimination of critics and power rivals, lying propaganda in compulsory schools.

Footnotes

[1] Gesta Danorum - Wikipedia
[2] Orestes - Wikipedia
[3] Jehoash of Judah - Wikipedia
[4] Macbeth - Wikipedia

Thursday, July 25, 2024

As Tolk Lang QQ Keep Dropping In

Q I

Are there grammar rules for Tolkien's languages? Where can I find them?
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-grammar-rules-for-Tolkiens-languages-Where-can-I-find-them/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

18.VII.2024

Yes, there are grammar rules for them.

You can find lots of info on them on Fauskanger’s site:

Ardalambion
https://ardalambion.net/

For instance, adjectives decline for plural but not for case in Quenya, while nouns decline both for number and for case.

Q II

What is the word for 'no' in the Elvish language?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-word-for-no-in-the-Elvish-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

18.VII.2024

In Quenya, according to Fauskanger’s wordlist, a “no” that means “it is not so” is “ui (uito)” or “lá” while a “no” that means “I won’t” or “you can’t” is “vá” ….

Q III

What are some guidelines for creating fictional languages or writing systems, similar to those used by J.R.R. Tolkien?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-guidelines-for-creating-fictional-languages-or-writing-systems-similar-to-those-used-by-J-R-R-Tolkien/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

21.VII.2024

DIY
DIFYOP

Explanations? “do it yourself” and “do it for your own pleasure” …

But starting point is knowing things about languages. It’s not just about how many languages you know, it is also how different they are and how much you know theoretically about them. And it even helps to know theory about languages you don’t actually know.

Tolkien’s writing systems are loosely based on Hangul, though aesthetically very different.

Then, there are the possibilities that come with “inventing like from scratch” and “inventing varieties” … Tolkien invented runes from the aesthetics of Anglo-Saxon runes and the principles of Hangul. You could also, if you want to invent runes look at the actual rune alphabets and make some kind of variety. If the Older Futhark is based on the Bolsano alphabet (not certain but also not totally improbable), try to make a similar shift to the Classical Etruscan alphabet of 20 letters, used in Etruria from 400 BC.

Tolkien invented some differences in Quenya and Sindarin from Q- and P-Celtic, which also is mirrored in Q- and P-Italic (Latin vs extinct Umbrian), but you could try to construct a couple starting with Old Latin and ending with French style Umbrian …

The problem if you do that is, of course, where does this fit in into known or alternative history? Noster Franzeis, which I have tried to construct is (I like to imagine) a language of a subterranean race dwelling in the caves below borders between France and Germany, perhaps down to Switzerland, probably down to Austria, hence the possibility of picking up the French language as it was c. 1000 and developing it with sound shifts like those found in Viennese German. If you can’t imagine a scenario where your population picks up French (any period) or develops it into sth sounding like Viennese German (though with other words and grammar, obviously), don’t do Noster Franzeis.

That’s one reason why Tolkien (whose scenarios are supposed to predate known history, except Genesis 3 and possibly Genesis 9) didn’t make varieties of known languages (he did however borrow from them, basically at an inverse from Pokorny’s borrowings to the Reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European, so Quenya “alqua” is among other things meant to explain why Icelandic has the Pre-Indo-European word “álft” and “ranca” explains why Lithuanian has “ranka” and Polish “ręka” also not probable as the Proto-Indo-European word for “hand” or even “hand / arm”).

Q IV

Are you fluent in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's languages? If so, which one and how did you learn it?
https://www.quora.com/Are-you-fluent-in-any-of-J-R-R-Tolkiens-languages-If-so-which-one-and-how-did-you-learn-it/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

St. Mary Magdalene

22.VII.2024

I’m, regrettably, not.

Twenty years ago, I was fluent in Quenya grammar and in the 240 words involved in Fauskanger’s course.[1] I was also sufficiently into Polish to be able to read The Magician’s Nephew in Polish translation, using a dictionary every once in a while.

THAT was 20 years ago!

“How?”

Fauskanger’s course.

Footnotes

[1] Quenya Course

Q V

What is the reason behind the belief that Elvish is a real language?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-reason-behind-the-belief-that-Elvish-is-a-real-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

Depending on what you mean by real language, and ignoring the mistake that you speak of (Tolkien’s) Elvish as one, rather than at least two, there is a very good case that it is, at least as much as Esperanto before it got used, and Proto-Indo-European in Schleicher’s fable.

Quenya and Sindarin are not natural languages spoken as native language by actually extant populations, the Noldor and Sindar of Beleriand being only fictional populations.

They are, like Esperanto, like Proto-Indo-European, Constructed languages. Esperanto is an Auxiliary language, constructed for the purpose of international communication. Proto-Indo-European is a Reconstructed or Proto-Language, constructed for the purpose of exploring why Latin, Lithuanian, Greek and Sanskrit have certain similarities in vocabulary and grammar, and where Germanic fits into it.

Quenya and Sindarin are constructed for art. When it comes to Quenya, it certainly cannot express as many topics as Esperanto, but it is also not quite as limited as Schleicher’s Fable.[1]

Footnotes

[1] Speak Elf Yourself - Part 1

23.VII.2024

Joseph Foster

Concur mostly and in judgement but one note. Proto-Indoeuropean is a reconstructed language. Done on the basis of comparative data and thorough knowledge of phonetics, phonology, and sound and even semantic change patterns. If by “constructed” you only meant Scheicher’s Fable but not the PIE Language, then I pretty much agree. It was an interesting exercise, and there have been a couple of revisions proposed since Schleicher first did it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, reconstruction is one form of construction.

I’m not saying there is no evidence behind it, I’m only saying it is construction rather than observation of what someone actually speaks in one’s hearing or someone actually writes in texts one can read.

Q VI

Is Elvish a real language or is it based on other languages like Spanish or French?
https://www.quora.com/Is-Elvish-a-real-language-or-is-it-based-on-other-languages-like-Spanish-or-French/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I know more than one Latin and Germanic language.

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

I suppose you here mean “real language” as opposed to code for some other language.

Like Hergé’s Syldavian is often seen as code for a marrolsch pronunciation of Flemish, used in the Flemish speaking parts of Bruxelles.

Unlike my Noster Franzeis, it is not based on an existing language in that or (for my Noster Franzeis) similar sense. It’s calculated to sound, in the case of Quenya somewhere between Finnish, Homeric Greek and Latin, in the case of Sindarin, somewhere between Welsh and Spanish.

But like he imitated rune like shapes without imitating the Futhark, Quenya is neither Finnish, nor Homeric Greek. Despite verbs like “utúlien” and nouns like “Helcaraxe” it’s neither Finnish nor Homeric Greek.

Think of it like this. Whenever you learn a new language, it’s usually not just a dialect of one you know (not true when I was learning Danish, but definitely true when I learned French). You cannot predict its grammar from any single language which you know, though it will have things in common with them. So, for French, unlike German and like Swedish and English, French lacks Ach-Laut. Like English and unlike German and Swedish, French lacks Ich-Laut / Tje-Ljud. Unlike Swedish (and Danish) and like German and English, French has an article before the noun. Like German and Swedish and unlike English, French has gendered nouns. Unlike German and Swedish, English not being comparable, French has only Masculine and Feminine. Like English, unlike German, French does not have four cases. Unlike all Germanic languages, French doesn’t even have a possessive case expressed with and ending, not even for names, but expresses the genitive (possessive and other types) with “de” …

Tolkien loved this feeling of discovering a new language and that was the feeling which he accessed by creating ones of his own. Any given systematic trait would be in common with some language he knew. But no grammar was followed to the full on its own, Quenya was always a surprise, and when one aspect of it was fixed, he tinkered with another one.[1]

My own Noster Franzeis[2] is very inferior, that’s how I can keep it up without notebooks (a notebook of mine got stolen with a language meant to combine traits of Old Latin, Mycenaean Greek and Romanian). But it can still surprise me at times. For instance, when I realised that not all French “oi” become “ei” in Noster Franzeis, but you have “Sint Ambrósi” and “el trotóri” since Saint Ambroise comes from “Sanctus Ambrosius” and “trottoire” from the verb “trotter” (“walk”, when applied to horses obviously “trot”) + an ending coming from Latin “-orium” … or when I decided that, like German, it has only one normal past tense (non-perfect, non-conditional), one that’s usually from Passé Simple, but in “estern” = “être” from Imparfait.

Footnotes

[1] Tolkien's Not-So-Secret Vice
[2] Noster Franzeis - üne Lange konstreute per mei!

Q VII, A

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Bruce-Walton-13

Bruce Walton

Keen reader of Tolkien (including posthumous works)

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

As far as I’m aware, not one single person with any significant knowledge on the subject asks “whether Tolkien really created his languages”. The “many” alleged by the querant do not exist.

It is a certain and provable fact that Tolkien invented several languages, to various degrees of completeness. His original autograph notes still exist, which demonstrates beyond all reasonable doubt that he did.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I did not state that “the many” were people with significant knowledge on the subject.

Being ignorant and not existing are two different things.

I have had to answer such questions on quora more than once, so, thanks for adding the autograph notes to my arsenal!

Bruce Walton

You’re welcome, and my apologies for the pejorative tone.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

No problem!

Thanks again!

Q VII, B

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund UniversityJ

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

To my somewhat a surprise but still not a complete surprise, I got an AI answer and I commented on it:

I'm Not the First to Ask
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2024/07/im-not-first-to-ask.html

Now, I have a little hunch that is not often repeated, which was therefore not given by the AI, but which can be correct.

Some people dislike Tolkien. Not all of them dislike all speculative fiction, some like Asimov[1] or Howard better than Tolkien. They don’t like to admit even one point, be it ultimately totally technical, in Tolkien’s favour. Being able to create languages is not a matter of whether Tolkien did so and used them with good judgement, it’s about simple ability.
Some linguists consider it integral part of the definition of “language” that it was “developed” and that by a society over generations. Atheists will deny the two Biblical counterexamples, like Adam getting a full-fledged language from scratch, straight on being created, and like people at Babel getting other full-fledged languages from scratch, in order to prevent them supernaturally from cooperating. Well, once the supernatural act was done, it was immediately a natural barrier from cooperation, just like with people learning different first languages and never learning each others’ so far. Someone had denied the capacity of God to create that many languages, and in order to point out their incapacity to imagine what the Christian view of God being all wise even means, I stated[2] “How? Instantaneous miraculous change of someone's language implies that just as his old language existed before the confusion, his new language exists after it, immediately. [§] As God is the ultimate origin of language, it is totally possible for him. Tolkien could invent Quenya and Sindarin over some years, and they have later been learnt and adopted for fun by other writers. God could invent several more in an instant, and impose them on people by necessity, making them forget their old language. Which means the passage is a point FOR, rather than against Divine Omnipotence and Wisdom. As a linguist you should know that making a language/a grammar implies wisdom.” People disagreeing on this have picked this definition as a fighting point.
Some people like to see Tolkien fans as gullible, and indeed as taken in. To them, the idea that Tolkien created Quenya is a prime example of such gullibility. I answered one such person today.[3]
Some people seem to imagine Tolkien was dabbling in the Black Arts[4] or was part of a secret society[5] or was mad (like his fanbase), in which case Tolkien would have been either suffering demonic glossolalia, or pathologic glossolalia, or getting a lot of help from teamwork. The idea that constructing a language at all was in fact possible, and possible rationally and for a single man, goes against their thesis.

I seem to be running in those types with these agendas. More than once.

Footnotes

[1] Notes on Asimov, Isaac
[2] ...on Tower of Babel or language evolution
[3] Hans-Georg Lundahl's answer to What is the reason behind the belief that Elvish is a real language?
[4] Tolkien och den svarta magin – Wikipedia
[5] John Todd, an Illuminati Defector, Exposes J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis - video Dailymotion

Hans-Georg Lundahl

While the source given for John Todd’s testimony is not identical to the one I read, but a video, I think it has the same content, and is therefore also fair game for my old debunking:

Why Not to Take John Todd's Testimony Against CSL and JRRT
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2015/07/why-not-to-take-john-todds-testimony.html

Q VII, C

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Lucy-Miller-302

Answer requested by

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Lucy Miller

Read the trilogy 1st time in '66.

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

It seems like, these days, there are certain people who don’t want to believe that someone could have the kind of creativity that Tolkien had. I certainly don’t see anyone asking if someone really developed a Klingon language for Star Trek, which certainly happened.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I think you are right.

Creativity in beauty (Klingon isn’t beautiful).

Q VII, D

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Mark-Decker-1

Mark Decker

Been an active Quora participant for 10 years at least

22.VII.2024

St. Mary Magdalene

So many?

I’ve been on Quora for a long time, never heard anyone ask it.

23.VII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Either you’ve been lucky or I have been unlucky.

Q VII, E

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/John-Sierra-38

John Sierra

Tolkien fan since the 80s

23.VII.2024

I have seen these questions, and I think that they stem from genuine curiosity borne from wonder at such a feat as creating languages basically from scratch.

I think that people are amazed that Tolkien would create languages for his stories, but the actual truth is more amazing - he didn’t do this, but rather created stories to fit his languages. Tolkien was a natural storyteller, but he was a linguist, philologist and professor first - his interest in languages dates back to before ever told his first story.

Nobody really had operated in this fashion previous, and not afterwards either. This I believe is what leads to the disbelief that he did it - it’s unusual to write a mythology to justify a language. Though Quenya is not quite a complete language, it is fairly close to being one, and with practice and careful study, one can speak Quenya fairly well.

Image Credit - Dave Lubbert

Answered three times

A, B, C

A

Klaus Ole Kristiansen

Professor M A R Barker created the Tsolyanu language as a hobby. Then he made up a whole society that speaks that language. This was published as part of a role playing game, The Empire of the Petal Throne. Later both Barker and fans have published several role playing games set in Tekumel. Barker eventually wrote novels set in this world, but he was far from the writer Tolkien was. Read The Man of Gold and Flamesong if you are already interested in Tsolyanu and Tekumel. Only read his last three novels if you are very interested.

B

Stan Dalone

It’s too bad he didn’t put some more effort into fleshing out Sindarin.

24.VII.2024

Vigil of St. James

C

Lui Peres

Though Quenya is not quite a complete language, it is fairly close to being one, and with practice and careful study, one can speak Quenya fairly well.

Is Sindarin considered a complete language, in that sense? Legit question.

John Sierra

Sadly not, it’s less complete than Quenya is.

Q VII, F

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Deborah-Raven-Lindley-1

Answer requested by

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Deborah Raven-Lindley

Author, literary quality Tolkien fanfiction.

24.VII.2024

Vigil of St. James

Who is the ‘so many’ that are asking? Please cite examples and sources…if you indeed are able. I do not believe you can, for no one would wish to embarrass themselves by having their name attached to a query of this nature.

Reams of documents exist in the man’s own handwriting spanning decades that create irrefutable evidence of his authorship and the evolutionary lineage of the languages from Gnomish to Nandorin, Quenya to Black Speech. Short of summoning him from the dead, who else is supposed to have managed these works of art? To try to strip the Professor of credit for the centerpiece of his Legendarium by asking such a specious question strikes me as beyond the pale.

This is emblematic of why I visit Quora is infrequently as possible. Ah, but carry on…

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I admit they are anonymous, usually.

Here are questions I have received on quora:

Are there grammar rules for Tolkien's languages? Where can I find them?

What is the word for 'no' in the Elvish language?

What are some guidelines for creating fictional languages or writing systems, similar to those used by J.R.R. Tolkien?

Are you fluent in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's languages? If so, which one and how did you learn it?

Can you provide some examples of Sindarin and Quenya poetry?

This one is especially clear on putting in doubt the fact:

What is the reason behind the belief that Elvish is a real language?

This one comes near:

Is Elvish a real language or is it based on other languages like Spanish or French?

This one is pretty clear:

Did J.R.R. Tolkien create his own constructed languages, such as Elvish? Is there any evidence to support this?

This one again comes near:

Who created Elvish, the fictional language from The Lord of the Rings? Is it a real language or was it invented for the purpose of the book?

I may have wrongly interpreted the first batch as simmply reinforcing the other four.

“Ah, but carry on…”

You are brave, my lady, to venture here. I even answer this type of questions (including the 2–4 where the doubt was especially clear).

Q VII, G

Why are so many asking whether Tolkien really created his languages?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-so-many-asking-whether-Tolkien-really-created-his-languages/answer/Zeddik-1

Zeddik

Knows a lot

24.VII.2024

Vigil of St. James

Because it sounds unbelievable and crazy that a single elderly guy invents over twenty artificial languages. But he did, even if some of them just consist of few words, and he had started inventing languages from his early childhood on. So it seems extremely unrealistic, but it is proven and true.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

One thing is true about the doubters’ position, as you state it.

He could probably not have done it if he had started as an elderly guy. And, as you rightly answer, he started out young in fact.

Q VIII

What factors contribute to the complexity of natural languages compared to artificial ones? Why are they not as complex and powerful as human language?
https://www.quora.com/What-factors-contribute-to-the-complexity-of-natural-languages-compared-to-artificial-ones-Why-are-they-not-as-complex-and-powerful-as-human-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

2.VIII.2024

St. Alphons Maria Liguori

There is nothing inherent in an artificial language which makes it incompatible with being as complex as an already existing language.

As to powerful, well, that partly depends on vocabulary, and when Helge Fauskanger translates the Bible (or a Protestant pirate copy of it) to Quenya, as well as when Esperantists use their favourite conlang in contexts not foreseen by Zamenhoff, they sometimes resort to making new vocabulary.

Does that clear up the question, Tolkienophobe?

Q IX

Did J.R.R. Tolkien create all of the languages in his works, or did he draw inspiration from other sources? If he did borrow, where did he find inspiration for these languages?
https://www.quora.com/Did-J-R-R-Tolkien-create-all-of-the-languages-in-his-works-or-did-he-draw-inspiration-from-other-sources-If-he-did-borrow-where-did-he-find-inspiration-for-these-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

6.VIII.2024

Transfiguration of the Lord

I’ll give you a sample of inspirationS for Quenya.

Phonology: Finnish and Homeric Greek.
Verbal morphology: Greek.
Noun morphology: between Latin and Finnish, not all that far from Turkish, with some Greek inspired choices, like Genitive in -o.
Giving adjectives a separate ending from nouns: Esperanto.

Vocabulary:
alqua, swan — Icelandic álft (close enough to Sindarin alph, supposed cognate of alqua, so Sindarin was more directly inspired by Icelandic in this case, Quenya indirectly over reconstructing its cognate to alph)
pé, mouth — Hebrew
lá, no, not (one word for no) — Arabic
[different words for no — Greek had it too (and I think so has Arabic)]
ranca, hand or arm — Lithuanian
tulen, I come — Finnish
tiuca, thick — Scandinavian languages
serce (=serke), blood — probably a mixture of Greek “sarka” with Polish “serce” (sertse), the one meaning flesh and the other heart, the things that blood flows between.

In other words, since he was widely read in languages, he was able to get inspirations from so many different of them that the result is an original thing. Reminds me of a Greek professor. Mine, actually. He said (of papers, not conlangs) “use one source, it’s plagiarism, use two, it’s compilation, use three [or more], it’s original research”

The point being, on Professor Blomqvist’s criteria, Tolkien did certainly not plagiarise one language.

EDIT: correction, the Greek professor didn’t say “use” he said “copy” …

Q X

Is it considered speaking a language if someone speaks a language that is not understood by anyone else? If so, what is this type of language called?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-considered-speaking-a-language-if-someone-speaks-a-language-that-is-not-understood-by-anyone-else-If-so-what-is-this-type-of-language-called/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

11.VIII.2024

XII LD after Pentecost

Conlangers usually have some kind of plan to let people understand parts of their language.

But if they haven’t, that’s kind of the situation Tolkien found when he overheard someone say “I think I’ll express the accusative with a preposition” (he interpreted this as someone else also creating a conlang, which is reasonable).

A conlang that is not shared with anybody is called (and Tolkien called it) a “private language” … he thought the hobby was pretty common.

If you meant a very different situation, being the last speaker who speaks a language, and muttering your last words in it, and no one was interested in learning even a bit, yes, that’s speaking a language.

When it’s a language no one else longer understands or a language no one else as yet understands, it’s still a language and it’s not inherent in it that no one else should be understanding it at the moment, but due to external factors as in not yet sharing a conlang or no longer having co-nationals of one’s linguistic minority around.

Q XI

Were all the Elvish names in The Lord of the Rings invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, or were they already in existence before him?
https://www.quora.com/Were-all-the-Elvish-names-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-invented-by-J-R-R-Tolkien-or-were-they-already-in-existence-before-him/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

17.VIII.2024

Any name in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion, that’s in either Quenya or Sindarin was, like these languages themselves, invented by Tolkien.

Some names were in existence before, but those are usually Norse names, sometimes Latinate ones, given as (equivalents of) the Westron of Men and Hobbits.

Elrond and Elros are Sindarin names, invented by Tolkien.

Sam Gamgee is a name in (the English equivalent of) Westron and not only was already in existence, but carried by a man who wrote Tolkien a worried letter. Lobelia Baggins is definitely a name that could exist in England, though I don’t think it did, and by now, any Baggins (if such) who named a daughter would probably want to avoid naming her Lobelia.

While The Shire is not on an island, it is meant as culturally equivalent to certain rural parts of England. Númenor, where Elros ruled some six thousand years before The Lord of the Rings, and Imladris / Rivendell where his brother Elrond still ruled when The Lord of the Rings started, well, they are meant to be mysterious, like Atlantis or like a Faerie, and Elfland. Therefore NOT to be culturally equivalent to rural England. Therefore in languages Tolkien invented, including names, which Tolkien also has to invent along with the languages.

Exception, Atalantë as a name of Númenor after it sank is obviously, if not identic to, at least clearly based on, Atlantis (which Númenor is supposed to represent).

Q XII

What is the equivalent of a language in Tolkien's world?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-equivalent-of-a-language-in-Tolkiens-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

26.VIII.2024

Two examples:

English is the equivalent of Westron
Anglo-Saxon is the equivalent of Rohirric.

This makes Westron and Rohirric, at least in relation to the novel fictitious languages rather than constructed ones.

The point is, if the setting is NW Europe in the times when Doggerland was above water (before there was an English Channel), it is basically impossible anyone would have been speaking English for real. The English is the equivalent of the most used language in the narrative, and this because, as unlike Sindarin or Quenya, Westron was not exotic to main characters, it is represented with its “equivalent” English, as English is not exotic to us.

Rohirric as related to Westron is treated with Anglo-Saxon equivalent, because in each case there is a close relation, and even so no complete intercomprehension, if you have not learned the other language.

If you write a novel in English, you won’t make its main characters speak a very different language (apart from when it’s set in India or Africa within English colonies where some speak Hindi or Kwazulu or Igbo). You will usually reserve other languages (real-world or constructed ones for a fantasy setting) for other characters.

Wednesday, July 24, 2024

Other Run-In With Joel Henry Hinrichs

Q, A a

How do creationists make sense of the different kinds of fossils of other species of Hominins?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-creationists-make-sense-of-the-different-kinds-of-fossils-of-other-species-of-Hominins/answer/Joel-Henry-Hinrichs

Joel Henry Hinrichs

Published novelist living in Colorado; recognized editor on writing websites

3 years ago

One dodge in particular is that any “evidence” that conflicts with Genesis has Satan’s fingerprints on it. Some Creationist sites equate “evolutionists” [[ equivalent to the blind calling the sighted “visionists” ]] with atheism.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

18.VII.2024

What evidence conflicts with Genesis?
Sight is a faculty, evolution is a belief. Your comment is grossly biassed.
The positive belief system of modern western Atheism is typically Evolution + Abiogenesis + Big Bang.
You give no examples of Creationists saying what you attribute to them, and if the question is typical, it was for Creationists, like what about letting us speak for ourselves?

Q, A b

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

18.VII.2024

Australopithecus, Paranthropus are extinct apes, perhaps bipedal, perhaps not, but apes.

Homo erectus, Homo Heidelbergensis, Homo Antecessor, Homo Denisovae, Homo Neanderthalensis are pre-Flood men, probably three races rather than five (Antecessor has a morphology like Heidelbergians and a genome like Denisovans, so the three names are probably the same race). Two of them were represented on the Ark by “half breeds” if you excluse the term. That’s why populations today have genomic similarities to Neanderthals and Denisovans more than other populations have.

From the lack of both Y-chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA of Neanderthal type, I’ll conclude that:

the Neanderthal half breeds were either Noah’s wife (perhaps fully Neanderthal even) or his daughters in law, leaving no Y-chromosomes;
and if the Neanderthal DNA is from the faughters in law, they or one or two of them were Neanderthals on father’s side, not mother’s so they didn’t get Neanderhal mitochondriae.

This is one of the clues why Neanderthals were pre-Flood.

What's Molinism Exactly?

No One Knows What MOLINISM Is…
Scholastic Answers | 16 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKy-SnGivIE

1:28 Since my days back before Catholic conversion (outdrawn process from 16 + to near 20), I took over the position of CSL, and found it pretty compatible with what I heard about Molinism.

Don't get me wrong. In Chronicles of Narnia Aslan's recurrent "no one is ever told what would have happened" ... sounds like a quip against Classic Molinism.

However, they are pretty compatible, both involve God giving us a true freedom of will.

Molinism: "before" God decides (in his eternal present) to give so and so efficient grace, He knows what that person would do in different scenarii.
Lewis: God sees all of time spread out before Him, like an author the plot. Even if the character's are so vivid to the author they make their choices, the author knows how to fix the coherence.

2:21 Was there any order that was strictly St. Thomas + Bishop Tempier?

8:01 "Catholic view of grace"

It could need mention that Second / Third Great Revivals, Asuza Street and a few more are far closer to the Catholic view than the Reformers were.

They hold grace is really an indwelling of God Who transforms the justified from within.

11:22 "in first act" .... scholastic term needing explanation!

I know what act and power is, but what's the distinction between "first act" and "second act"?

@_MysticKnight: Essentially, first act refers to the state of being, while second act refers to the activities or operations that flow from the first act.

So in context, the Molinists hold that sufficient grace and efficacious grace are really identical in themselves, but only become really distinct after they God pours out those graces on us. In other words, grace is extrinsically efficacious; grace becomes efficacious if the will cooperates with it, but remains sufficient if we don't.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
hglundahl: @_MysticKnight Thank you very much for the clarification.

12:24 I'd have tended to agree with Acquaviva.

Denying the distinction between efficiacious and sufficient seems to be part of Calvin's case for [what amounts to] positive negative antecedent reprobation [even if he would possibly not have admitted it amounted to that].

But I have a problem.

Given God's knowledge, how is a sufficient grace that's not efficacious sufficient? Does it mean "sufficient in theory"? Does it mean God says "it sufficed for someone else, who was a better guy, so if I give him this, he can't complain when he's damned"?

15:46 I've perhaps already mentioned I favour a specific eclecticism involving St. Thomas and Bishop Tempier.

Meaning the positions of the Paris bishop (this is before Paris became an archdiocese) in late 1276 or early 1277 (early March in what we would count as 1277), as indicated by the negation of what he condemns.

Would you mind analysing his views? David Piché made a book side by side of the Latin plus translation. As an appendix, he gave the Latin in the repetition given in England (by Arundel, I think), where it was systematised after subjects. I copied that one and added footnotes in what I hope was matching scholastic not too classic Latin from Paris 13th C:

Index in stephani tempier condempnationes
EN LENGUA ROMANCE EN ANTIMODERNISM Y DE MIS CAMINACIONES | WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 11, 2012
https://enfrancaissurantimodernism.blogspot.com/2012/01/index-in-stephani-tempier.html

I think capitula VI, IX, XIV, perhaps in the smaller chapters at the end (XX) would be go-tos.

Many of my footnotes are obviously just reminders to the scholastically unwary reader that Tempier issued in Syllabus form, so each bit of text is sth he condemned.

Tuesday, July 23, 2024

In Case you Wonder, I'm No Mormon

When Mormon Missionaries Came to My House
Brian Holdsworth | 6 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evwGyxUljkw

7:20 Another novel conception: posing the Great Apostasy at after the Apostles Died = contradicting Matthew 28:16—20. (The claims of Luther also do that, but in a somewhat more roundabout way).

Back after my granny died, I received two of them, and the next time, they didn't come into a discussion.

Minor point with them, they didn't know Catholic clergy and religious are required to read or sing but certainly pray the psalms each week.

8:39 Before hearing your first question, the covenants are not similar at every point.

Deuteronomy 28 is a conditional covenant, and a promise of an upcoming eternal covenant.

Matthew 28:16—20 finishes off the eternal, therefore unconditional, covenant.

God allows backsliding in parts of the Church, and I believe currently in most of the Church, but never in all of it.

13:26 Protestants on this issue could say "we have OT from the Jews, most of NT was accepted in all local Churches, a few books who weren't had even so been accepted by most of the Church, most local Churches, therefore this near consensus on each NT book goes back to the Apostles" ... the one Apostolic tradition not corrupted.

Even from a Catholic view, each book was inspired and accepted by parts of the Church as such, as soon as it was written and given by writer to destination. So, for each book, infallible Apostolic tradition precedes the decisions in Rome, Carthage and Hippo.

15:22 Remind you of another religion, right? Though in their case it's four wives ...

Ironically, I have over and over been called a Mormon, because:

I like Mormons on a personal level
I have stated that it is metaphysically possible for Joseph Smith to have knowledge and especially mastery of Nephetic (I also stated this was not just God's prerogative, demons could do it)
and I find the Mormon view of Great Apostasy and Revival clearer and less roundabout to refute than the view of the Reformers, which is a muddled version of it.

Plus, maybe, some very uncultured people who grew up in extreme isolation think Catholicism is stranger to YEC, so, if I'm YEC, I must have it from Mormons (never mind St. Augstine was very explicit in City of God). That could be a cause too.

Different issue:

15:22 bis, one more reason some very isolated educations resulted in taking me for a Mormon could be I considered the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints that were raided, certainly wrong about polygamy, when that occurred, but with equal certainty right about marital age.

Raising it to 18 was a fad of the late 1800's (at least for girls).

It's not a question of my accepting the (non-extant) authority of Fundamentalist Latter Days Saints, it is however a question of my accepting the extant authority of the Catholic Church, which for most of the time it had an explicit age limit had it 12 for girls, 14 for boys, even right to the beginning of the century I was born in. In 1917, that was raised to 14—16, compatible with early Mormon practise and FLDS raided and punished practise.

Under the Czars, or at least the last one, it was 13—15, until Lenin changed that to 18—18, another one of his crimes.

It had previous to the one or two last Czars been 12—14 as among Roman Catholics.

Video which reminded me of it:

The True Story of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger
Mormonism Explained | 26 June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNXaufFis0E

If we compare two prophets that can't be true ones (there was no Great Apostasy of all the Church, Paul and Constantine didn't forge the Gospel text), the affair of Fanny Alger seems more humane than that of Zaynab bint Jahsh, first told to marry Muhammed's adopted son Zayd ibn Haritha al-Kalbi, then that stepson was told to giver her up so his stepfather could marry her.

I don't know the current stance of your version of LDS on marital age, but for 14 year old, there is Helen Marr Kimball. THAT would not have got Joseph Smith lynched in the US of back then (unlike some areas now, apparently), if there had been no polygamy.

Tolkienophobia

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolk Lang QQ · Tolkienophobia · As Tolk Lang QQ Keep Dropping In · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: I'm Not the First to Ask · New blog on the kid: Since I'm Being Pestered by Tolkienophobes ...

Lord Of The Rings Is “Far-Right” Now
The Comments Section with Brett Cooper | 19 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4EjDyK15_A

0:45 Wait, you are sure she didn't say so on her birthday?

She's born April 1st!

3:10 There are guys who are asking and asking and asking me on quora, diverse approaches, but essentially "do you REALLY think Elvish is a language" -- "I'll ignore that Sindarin and Quenya are two languages, but actually, in many senses of the word, not like the primary means of verbal communication of a real world population, but lots of other senses, yes" ..

Does Quenya have a grammar? Can we learn Quenya? What is "no" in Quenya? What is the reason behind the belief that Quenya is a real language? ....

I put out a question of my own. "Why are so many people asking if Quenya is a real language?"

I just came up with a new notion. Rachel Maddow isn't exactly many ... she could be harrassing me!

5:12 I'm reminded that some Left Wing Librarians used to ban Chronicles of Narnia back in the time.

Communism is back, or sth?

6:04 "with no added sugar"

Crucial, if you want good sleep. I don't mean as a four year old, or even as a teen (when good sleep might not be a priority anyway, I recall reading LotR or some less good books to 3 am before turning off the lamp if I even did that .. usually in English and often enough night from Wednesday to Thursday, because I had two hours English, I didn't need to go to, and two hours German I didn't need to go to, I had taken good final exams in both, already).

But I do mean the guys who worry about this homeless guy "he really shouldn't have a pint of beer before going to sleep, he needs sth with lots of sugar" are WRONG ... my problem isn't going to sleep, but staying asleep to the morning. Big meal, no alcohol = waking up at 3 or 4 am, no going back to sleep after that ...

9:20 It can be mentioned that the "Campo Hobbit" were arranged by a successor party to Partito Nazionale Fascista.

They also love Ezra Pound. The best cultural centre of an Italian Fascist right now, is it "Casa Gabriele d'Annnunzio"? No, it's "Casa Pound" ...

Seems the killer and suicide Gianluca Casseri who was in the margin of it loved ... Tolkien. He also loved Hugo Pratt's Corto Maltese, no, that was Casa Pound actually, which for some reason doesn't get demonised as Alt-Right (so far?).

It can also be mentioned that Gianluca Casseri loved Lovecraft. Probably thousand times more racist than you could make a case for Tolkien being.

10:20 Is it his left wingism or is it his being US that makes him bad at languages?

Instead of "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" he said "Ellen silla lúmen omentielvo" ...

But OK, he at least acknowledged that Quenya is a language, even if he was bad at its pronunciation.

Thursday, July 18, 2024

Is K-Ar Unverifiable? Quoran Answer Six Years Ago (Disconnected Account)

Q What do creationists make of fossils of other extinct hominid species such as Homo Neanderthals and others?
https://www.quora.com/What-do-creationists-make-of-fossils-of-other-extinct-hominid-species-such-as-Homo-Neanderthals-and-others/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Blog : "http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com". Debating evolutionists for 15 years +.

6 years ago

“First, when it comes to Homo Neanderthals they claim that he was just a slightly different human being with a odd shape head and jaw.”

Dixit Kimball.

I found that good enough till I heard of the work of Pääbo (Svante).

Since then, I hold Neanderthals are a pre-Flood race and use the carbon date gap between last Neanderthals (not just charcoals in their cave in Gibraltar) and first modern population of Europe as carbon date for Flood.

Thanks for asking … wait, there was one more part …

… such as Neanderthals and others …

The others (Antecessor, Heidelbergensis, Rudolfensis probably, Solo Man and a few more), being fully human, are however not carbon dated since presumed too old for that, since dated by K-Ar - a worthless method, as verified on recent volcanic eruptions. Unverifiable, if you look at half life and how long a period you would need to get a detactable part of a half life.

100,000 years "This date is too large and beyond the limits of present accuracy (55000 to 60000 years)" "OK" carbon left 0.001 % (if original content were 100 % modern carbon or 100 pmc)

What is that to the half life? 100000 / 5730 = 17.45

So, after 17.45 halflives (Culloden is a good mnemonic) you have 0.001 % of original content left.

Now, I am not going after 17.45 halflives of K-Ar, I am going for the other end.

100 - 0.001 = 99.999 %

Years 0, +/- 5

99.9 %

Years 10, +/-5

10 / 5730 = 0.0017452006980803

Hmmmm 0.001745 (Culloden rule, again, in a way).

What is the half life of K-Ar method?

“40K decays with a half-life of 1.248×10^9 years to 40Ca and 40Ar.”[1]

So we get: 1,248,000,000 * 0.001745 = 2,177,760.

What corresponds to 10 years with carbon dating (clearly verifiable with history for back quite a while) is 2,177,760 years (clearly not so). The dating method is not verifiable.

Footnotes

[1] K–Ar dating - Wikipedia

Following comment

was only made after my account had been discontinued. I discovered it today.

Joel Henry Hinrichs

4 years ago

Dating methods that are “not verifiable” are in fact prone to provide data you wish not to accept.

18.VII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sounds like some kind of psychoanalysis.

What do you do about my argument:

“Unverifiable, if you look at half life and how long a period you would need to get a detactable part of a half life.”

For Carbon 14, I consider the halflife as nearly totally verified, and I also show a way in which increasing levels of it in the atmosphere between Flood and Fall of Troy involve real Biblical chronology systematically misdated by carbon 14 (prior to fall of Troy).

Why do I consider it as verified? Because you can take a substantial section of the halflife and verify the method against known artefacts from the period. Half a halflife lands you back in the times of Assyria, a quarter of a halflife in the Early Middle Ages.

Deal with my argument before you try to explain WHY I reason for a point!

Joel Henry Hinrichs

“Unverifiable, if you look at half life and how long a period you would need to get a detactable part of a half life.”

Word salad - half lives are easy to determine, based on just one prem,ise - that the universe has held to the same rules (quarks, cosmic rays, and so on) since the universe began.

For Carbon 14, I consider the halflife as nearly totally verified, and I also show a way in which increasing levels of it in the atmosphere between Flood and Fall of Troy involve real Biblical chronology systematically misdated by carbon 14 (prior to fall of Troy).

There was no Flood. (sigh - Genesis literalists are way out in the wind here. Verses 1 and 3 declare that God instantiated time space matter light and light. Day Four put the rest of the visible universe beneath the forever supply of rain put above the vault of the sky on Day Two, yet Earth orbits the nearest Star.

Day Three elevates Earth from beneath the vast waters of creation, yet Earth is a ball with a thin crust of continents surrounded by wispy films of water (seas). Genesis is theology. To “describe” how the earth formed, and how plants and animals arrived, you need to start with the origin of the universe, then spend 8.8 billion years to reach the part where the sun forms, plus another 460 million years for the planets to coalesce, THEN another 3/4 of a billion years for first life to bloom, THEN another two-ish billion years for eukaryote life to appear (look it up) THEN another 1.5-is billion years for eukaryotes to become truly able to form multicellular life forms - am boring you?

Why do I consider it as verified? Because you can take a substantial section of the halflife and verify the method against known artefacts from the period. Half a halflife lands you back in the times of Assyria, a quarter of a halflife in the Early Middle Ages.

Half-lives occur in many elements which have radioactive isotopes. C14 is one of many. Where is your homework on this?

Deal with my argument before you try to explain WHY I reason for a point!

What argument?

Was answered twice

A and B

A

19.VII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“half lives are easy to determine, based on just one prem,ise - that the universe has held to the same rules (quarks, cosmic rays, and so on) since the universe began.”

They aren’t. It’s not just a question of there being a halflife, but of the halflife being known to us through verifiable methods.

“There was no Flood.”

You are a heretic.
You are contradicting the mass of human history outside the Bible as well.
You have no argument for it even.

“am boring you?”

Yes, you are. You are copying Hugh Ross, plus forgetting the Flood is not in Genesis 1 but in Genesis 6–9.

“Half-lives occur in many elements which have radioactive isotopes. C14 is one of many.”

A halflife occurring is one thing. A halflife both occurring and being verified and being useful for dating purposes is different.

“What argument?”

The one you tried unsuccessfully to deal with.

B

19.VII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Two minor points in the perspective of your answer.

You presume that I don’t know what eucaryotes are (says sth about your prejudice against YEC)
You presume I agree that Earth orbits the Sun. I actually disagree.

Wednesday, July 17, 2024

Jimmy Akin Pretty Good on the Other Subjects, Judging from Prior and Following, However YEC vs OEC ...

Young Earth Creationism vs Old Earth Creationism? Ask Me Anything
Jimmy Akin | 17 July 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv3QQPGo9Xs

8:10 What you just said was correct c. 100 years ago, or perhaps even a bit further back.

In your communion, there came out a so called CCC, where § 283 pretty much clinches modern research as correct, "which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man." and since it says just before that "many scientific studies" it arguably means the majority position of scientists.

That's a canonic change these last decades. But there is a difference between being old earther as Fr. Fulcran Vigouroux was and to be one as Swamidass is now.

To Fulcran Vigouroux, Adam and Eve were the unique progenitors of all men, not one couple out of 1000 or 10 000, and lived c. 7000 years ago (he favoured LXX over Vulgate in chronology, so do I). It's kind of less relevant that he could have accepted dinos as dying out 66 million years ago. Not irrelevant, but not amounting to anything like a major discrepancy from the faith.

That's pretty much what JW's do today. They ignore C14, so, a C14 date of 40 000 BP being really just before the Flood, where it occurs in the chronology, well, they don't realise this could only happen in a young atmosphere, before the equilibrial point between normal C14 production and C14 proportion and consequently decay mostly cancel each other out after some decades, sometimes after some centuries.

If you don't ignore C14, and if you accept and old universe, an old earth, if you accept 40 000 years in carbon date as implying 40 000 real years, you are suddenly in trouble.

Place Adam near the beginning or before it, you make Genesis 3 not transmittable, by oral historic transmission, and you make Adam being a farmer, like his son Cain, inaccurate.

Place Adam in 7000 BP, like 5500 to 4570 BC, as Fr. Fulcran would have done, but add human skeleta in 40 000 BP, you are suddenly in the domain of pre-Adamites, plus an insecurity if Pre-Columbian and Pre-van Diemen populations of Americas and Oceania could really at first contact have been descended from Adam. That's a very big no-no.

8:49 I agree Earth is older than dead dinos.

I don't agree we have any good reason to believe these are millions of years old.

Stratigraphy, ecology, radiometric, every one of these points, I have answers to. I'll share them if you are interested.

I'm happy you defend the right of both to argue their positions, but it seems the Archdiocese of Paris is in practise treating me as a dissenter, or, if not, due to inaccurately throwing doubt on YEC being my definite position, and writing, publishing on blogs and hopefully blog-to-book, my already chosen profession. Some may pretend the YEC articles they recently saw of me were a phase, I've been strict pro-Biblical chronology since 1999 or 2000 when reading City of God, and some may pretend writing is perhaps not what I really want to do, both ways they are ruining my capacity of getting paid as as writer for among other things YEC content.

9:08 100 years ago, a position on the six days was enough to be Old Earther. By then, Day-Age (strictly speaking) and Gap were already shown false by research, their compatibility hasn't improved since, as far as I know, and Fr. Eugène (?) Mangenot radically altered exegesis by pretending the six days were a freely chosen literary form, not falling under inspiration, at least as far as chronology is concerned.

But by now, an Old Earther would need a position on Adam and Cain as farmers and on genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11. Plus where the Flood fits in, if it wasn't global, and if it was, it accounts for dinosaur fossils and is therefore by itself an argument for Young Earth.

11:03 Literary structure argument suggests God as Creator and Providence is so radically different from good story-tellers, He wouldn't make the actual sequence of events coincide with a good story (the opposite view of what Tolkien had of the Gospels!).

The "days before the Sun" problem is dealt with in detail in De Genesi ad Litteram Libri XII, namely in book I.

It's available in Georges Pompidou library, so I spent some time looking at that.

Earth is round. From the absolute beginning, it was first enveloped on all sides by darkness. After "let there be light" it was then enveloped on all sides by light, provided without a light source.

After Genesis 1:4, Earth was enveloped in light on one side, and in darkness on the other side, and the limits started rotating, same speed as Sun would take later. The days are counted in the Time Zone of Jerusalem, which is where God created Adam (Eden was probably in Jordan, somewhere, or perhaps even started as far West as Jericho ... either way, it was taken off the earth before Israelite history starts).

Tuesday, July 16, 2024

But Not By Musk

We are probably in the endtimes, but Musk is not the culprit, not the main, main one, whose number calculates 18 times 37. By the way, if you find one who has that number in his name, don't try to kill him, if you are right, he'll survive and be instantly much worse than before.

Is Elon Musk the Antichrist? Is Neurolink the Mark of the Beast? Revelation 13 and End Times
Dr Taylor Marshall | 7 Dec. 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTB3W4oxSQY

3:14 In Greek, the word for forehead is μέτωπον.

The first occurrence of this in Greek is in Homer, it refers to the faceshields of Greek helmets.

Does that make some reference to masks? One type of mask was even called "faceshield" and looked very much like what the Greek helmets had attached.

Before you dismiss Homer as irrelevant, check out the fact that the first occurrence of Apollyon is also in Homer, as a name for Apollon. Yes, Homer called him "the destroyer" in connexion with his sending the plague on the Greeks.

Hachikō
@hatchi3033: Neuralink in greek gematria is 666. Coincidence ? i think not.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
@hglundahl: @hatchi3033 Nun, epsilon, upsuilon, rho, alpha, 50 + 5 + 400 + 100 + 1 = 556.

Lambda, iota, gamma, kappa, 30 + 10 + 3 + 20 = 53.

556 + 53 = 609.

If we took nun instead of gamma - contrary to Greek spelling and transscription rules - we would have 3 less and 50 more than 53, i e 100, 556 + 100 = 656.

What did you say it was again? I seriously think you are wrong.

Neurolink instead of Neuralink, omicron instead of alpha, means - 1, + 70.

678 or 725.
Hachikō: @hglundahl mohammed bin salman or elon musk could be the anti christ
Hans-Georg Lundahl: @hatchi3033 Neither has that gematria, as far as I know.

Salman could well be King of the South, therefore other than AC who's probably King of the North.

4:38 There are two possibilities on "fire from heaven"

1) it is demonic (like Satan making a parody on Elijah's sacrifice)
2) or it is technological

in the latter case, it can very well refer to anyone disposing of missiles. Putin bragged about those called Sarmat - which a few months ago he nicknamed himself "Satan II" ... before, some months later, his propaganda machine got involved in "desatanising Ukraine" .... which is more Christian and less aborting than Russia.

7:37 "born in fornication"

Isn't it more like him being "son of an apostate bishop and an apostate Jewish virgin"?

That's how St. Bridget says.

Russia is spoken of as "mother Russia" and while Putin was born there and took power there, it was clearly apostate, since highest aborting country in the European cultural sphere, and also since endorsing DiaMat. Its apostasy is due to at least some of the Jews within.

His bishop, i e spiritual father, is the KGB agent Kirill, who a decade or so earlier lampooned US Christian right for wanting to ban abortion, saying "that's Christian Shariah" ... he's also no fan of Creationism.

7:47 You know what the maiden name of Putin's mother was?

Shelomova. Note the "shin" sound ... in Russian, the usual form for Solomon is "Соломон" - normal S sound.
Care to guess what her ethnic background is?

8:22 Apocalypse 7:1 - how do you identify the four corners?

Chapter 20 - I suppose you agree with St. Augustine over St. Justin? That would make final verses of 20 parallel to the "dark chapters" of Revelation up to 19.

20:7 has "four quarters" - but isn't there a reading that has "four corners"?

If you identify the four corners, is there a specific ethnicity you would tend to find on all four of them?

Ryan Reeves' Take on the Galileo Trial — and Mine

His take is in the video:

Why Was Galileo on Trial for Heresy?
Ryan Reeves | 18 Sept. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFVF0vsQhM

Aspects of mine in some of the ensuing comments:

7:59 The diagramme shows the Ptolemaic system.

Now, the fact is, the Tychonian one was discussed at the trials and the only one condemning it was Galileo.

8:11 "Has since been proved by science"

When? How? What kind of science?

Science seen in a Creation by God universe or science seen in a Naturalistic Assumptions universe?

8:57 Not just Joshua 10:13!

Take a look at Joshua 10:12, Joshua isn't ordering Earth to cease rotating, but Sun and Moon to stand still (and no, the cited words are not his prayer, they come after his prayer and are the inspired answer by God).

Also check :

And Isaias said to him: This shall be the sign from the Lord, that the Lord will do the word which he hath spoken: Wilt thou that the shadow go forward ten lines, or that it go back so many degrees? And Ezechias said: It is an easy matter for the shadow to go forward ten lines: and I do not desire that this be done, but let it return back ten degrees.

4 Kings (2 Kings) 20:9, 10

If this was a solar miracle, it would have made kind of a bump if it was really earth that was normally rotating, right?

9:35 Exactly why is this assumption [heavenly bodies moving in perfect circles] more crucial?

It's assumed by Copernicus, but can it be taken as more crucial in Aristotle?

13:19 It may be of interest to you to read my story about Mayson and Teresa, the originators of the May-Ter system (not adopted in the US) and how they came to end up discussing Heliocentrism.

Link in follow up comment.

[Just in case the youtube channel automatically hid comments with links in them]

The intro and the title is pretty high and dry, but I think you'll find the story hilarious:

New blog on the kid: Have you heard the expression "von Neumann chain"?
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2022/08/have-you-heard-expression-von-neumann.html

18:01 For Einstein, you only get the mic drop if you presume Heliocentrism as already proven.

Another interpretation of Michelson-Moreley along with Saignac is, Heliocentrism is false, Earth doesn't move in an orbit around the Sun.

19:11 Is this illustration from the Swedish work "Min Skattkammare" one volume of which is "De Stora Upptäckterna" / The Great Discoveries?

19:38 Note, none of the actual visual discoveries of Galileo was condemned by the Church.

Oparin's Out, Modernist Dominican Doesn't Get It

Where Does Life Come From? Evolution and God's Creation (Aquinas 101)
The Thomistic Institute | 3 May 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_JygxcSYU

2:18 Creation Scientists have long since discovered excellent reasons against life arising from complex interactions of non-living things.

Evolution believers, both Atheist and Pseudo-Catholic ones, are behind the times.

An eggcellent (!) one is lecithine. It's a phospholipid. In lots of cell membranes, I think even inner membranes of plant cells, the outer membrane of which is cellulose, the material is phospholipids, of which lecithine is an eggsample (!). Egg yolks (!) contain lecithine, which is crucial to ice cream and mayo. Shouldn't be easy to miss, right?

Well, the fact is, Miller Urey conditions will certainly not produce lecithine or any other phospholipids.

I heard a rumour of Montmorillionite clays helping to synthesise phospholipids. Not so.

The clay montmorillonite is known to catalyze the polymerization of RNA from activated ribonucleotides. Here we report that montmorillonite accelerates the spontaneous conversion of fatty acid micelles into vesicles. Clay particles often become encapsulated in these vesicles, thus providing a pathway for the prebiotic encapsulation of catalytically active surfaces within membrane vesicles. In addition, RNA adsorbed to clay can be encapsulated within vesicles. Once formed, such vesicles can grow by incorporating fatty acid supplied as micelles and can divide without dilution of their contents by extrusion through small pores. These processes mediate vesicle replication through cycles of growth and division. The formation, growth, and division of the earliest cells may have occurred in response to similar interactions with mineral particles and inputs of material and energy.

This is an actual science report, [I was just] citing the abstract:

Experimental Models of Primitive Cellular Compartments: Encapsulation, Growth, and Division
Martin M. Hanczyc,* Shelly M. Fujikawa,* and Jack W. Szostak†
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484575/

It would help form vesicles, but it would not produce the fatty acids. They need to be there before they can form vesicles. The one thing outside modern industry and the spiritual world capable of synthesising fatty acids known so far, is biology already alive. Ditto for the subclass phospholipids.

Miller Urey conditions are one setting in which modern industry will not synthesise phospholipids.

2:28 St. Thomas thought that the astrological influence of the planet Sun was the ultimate cause for biological life, as for the metal gold. Just as Venus is for love and for copper. Mars for strife and for iron. Right or wrong, this kind of thing is not what modern science is studying.

It's definitely not the universe of modern science that suggests that plants could arise from non-life.

And in St. Thomas' view, lower life forms could indeed be caused by Generatio aequivoca, Sun working without prior biology to produce biology, but not of higher beasts (or man), nor was there a transition between lower and higher inside biology.

2:40 Yes, "overarching order" and not "everchanging sequence of different orders" ... opposite of Evolutionism.

Also, the overarching order was not that of a clockwork. Rather, if we compare St. Thomas to Paley, St. Thomas is clearly less Deist. A clockwork needs no more input from the clockmaker unless it's broken. It needs the mechanism, the winding, and it will work on its own. St. Thomas compared creation to an instrument of which the creator is also the player.

5:08 "it's possible for order to emerge from seemingly random events"

Distinguo. Order as in symmetry, granted, irrelevant for DNA or RNA. Order as information, not granted, and that is what is relevant to DNA and RNA.

6:16 Seminal reasons translate as embryo.

If you know Latin you know "seminal" comes from semen, seed, and if you know biology, you know a seed is a fertilised plant ovum, a plant embryo.

It also has a connotation of Platonic Form ... which embrya do incorporate of their respective created kinds.

7:08 "long and complex process of development"

You are confusing biology and chemistry.

Miller Urey conditions can create amino acids. They will also quickly produce the disintegration of the same amino acids they produce. Quickly meaning within hours, not millions of years open to development.

Monday, July 15, 2024

Three Warnings Ignored and Rebutted

3 warnings for Christians (gaps, miracles, creationism)
Biblical Bookworm | 1 July 2024 VIENNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_OXlENzwEw

Entschuldigung, did you make a book review instead of your own video on Genesis?

[No answer so far]

0:41 "science" (or rather that particular rabbit trail) has been trying to "advance" since Miller Urey, to no avail.

Rather, science on the creationist side has by now enumerated c. 100 problems for the abiogenesis scenario.

Scientific research can only be guaranteed to advance if they are on a true trail.

0:56 The problems with Abiogenesis do not just come from gaps, they come from what we do know.

Chirality problem, membrane problem (as a friend of ice cream and of mayo, I obviously note Miller Urey conditions don't produce phospholipids). Information is sth other than symmetry or similar mechanic orders.

3:01 "no more than the architect...."

Begs a question. Is God just the Stradivarius, or also the Paganini?

To Freemasons, God is the Stradivarius, we are the Paganini.

To St. Thomas Aquinas, God is the Paganini too.

As such, He should be detectable influencing movements in it.

3:40 "very low"

No. I'm on the edge whether Jacobus really walked im Schnee, but not on whether Jesus cured Hansen's disease in seconds (an antibiotics cure takes six months, optimal circumstances).

5:10 He's giving anecdotic evidence on one side.

Yes, apostasies happen. The main problem for that apostasy is Evolution belief in surrounding society, just as another Classic Hell disbelief in surrounding society. The YEC or Hell is real side only contributed partly by being too little intellectually articulate in many cases.

5:31 "rigorous"

He'd merit a Goebbels medal for dishonest propaganda!

6:40 God may not be lecturing about these topics, but Genesis 1 to 11 (and 14) has a lot to teach on them.

6:51 Stephen J. Gould came from an ideologically tainted place: Jewish agnosticism.

His appeal to his colleagues is worthless, since none of them are good theologians, with very few exceptions (Teilhard was a very bad one).

7:20 Note, he said "Theist" not the more specific "Catholic" ...

7:58 Did I mention, "God of the gaps" is an accusation of a fallacy invented by Nietzsche and Henry Drummond, popularised by Modernists Ernest Barnes, Anglican "Bishop" of Birmingham and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the only useful thing said of it is ...

Either God is in the whole of Nature, with no gaps, or He's not there at all.

The problem is, this doesn't mean one should seek "the whole of Nature" adequately represented in a science which has a social habit of "pushing God out of yet another gap" ... the setup in modern science is wrong, so, "the whole of Nature" should be sought on Scholastic, and that means things like Geocentric and Young Earth Creationist terms.

Unfortunately, Charles Coulson didn't see it that way.

11:15 Collins is wrong in pretending Theistic Evolution puts God in places natural science was not meant to provide non-theistic answers for.

It takes God out of some places where non-theistic science as modern science is conducted was never a good clue to the answer.

Geocentrism as viewed by St. Thomas involved God turning the universe itself around earth each day.

Not meaning God once upon a time set a mechanism in place for it, but that God is performing that turning right now.

But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.
[John 5:17]

Before we discuss whether origin of biological i e created life needs God very directly, how about not admitting Newton "pushed God out of that gap" as Nietzsche's theory probably went?

Saturday, July 13, 2024

Persecutions of Catholics by Protestants, Reformation Era

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Persecutions of Catholics by Protestants, Reformation Era · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Questions on the Reformation

Q: How did Protestants presecute Catholics in the Reformation?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Protestants-presecute-Catholics-in-the-Reformation/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
Answer requested by: Day0216
Hans-Georg Lundahl: Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
2 years ago: [Originally Answered: Did Protestants presecute Catholics in the Reformation? How? Remove Banner]

This is actually two questions.

Did Protestants presecute Catholics in the Reformation?

Yes, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, to some degree Zwinglians too, did so. Not always and everywhere, but it was crucial to get a following in large principalities like national kingdoms.

How?

For instance by killing of priests who would not become Reformed (Cardinal Beaton in Scotland, St. Fidelis of Sigmaringen) or who catered to diehard Catholics (martyrs in England, among whom the forty martyrs) or by persecuting converts with death (Gustavus Adolphus saw two executions) or exile (Queen Christina abdicated and exiled herself and in Charles XII’s time he met a Swedish wannabe Jesuit in Poland, he wished him the best and helped him economically, but didn’t allow him a safe return to Sweden).

Monasteries were dissolved, and people who tried to refuse were killed - like the Franciscan Prior in Ystad, who had his head cleft in two for saying “we won’t” to the Danish king’s men.

People who defended monasteries, priests, holy things, and were peasants were also treated as traitors, both in the time of Gustav Wasa in Sweden and in the wannabe reformation during French Wars of religion : Coligny was a war criminal, who had hanged peasants as “war criminals” for trying to defend their priest and Church.

In Calvin’s Geneva, nuns of a monastery were harrassed into either marrying (against their vows) or exiling themselves from Geneva. Harrassed in ways that would land the perps in prison, now.

Pro-Death: Misreporting the Kate Cox Case and Misjudging the Ohio Girl of Ten Case

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Three Takes on Morality · Pro-Death: Misreporting the Kate Cox Case and Misjudging the Ohio Girl of Ten Case · New blog on the kid: Best wishes for your recovery, Mr. Trump! · Yearick or Crooks?

Judy Rofe: An Australian who never lost sight of the bigger picture.
July 1st: SERIOUSLY, THINK ABOUT THIS …

[When your wife is dying painfully from sepsis because doctors will get arrested if they treat her partial miscarriage, the last thing on your mind will be Biden's age.]
Spoiler alert: The dishonest meme above did not happen. Alternatively, the hysteric meme is not likely to happen from the things that did happen.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 2nd, 2024: I don’t think there is a single legislation that requires that of doctors, but there may be doctors in anti-abortion legislatures who pretend to be dumb, just to make a dumb point against the law.

No legislation requires partial miscarriages already dead to stay in the womb. Extraction in that case isn’t killing.
Answered three times: I, II, III
I
TonyN
July 2nd, 2024: You need to do some reading. This is becoming COMMON across a number of red states, right now.
Answered twice: IV, V

IV
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 3rd, 2024: If so, I think it’s doctors bluffing, because they don’t like the legislation, they parody it.
Answered three times: VI, VII, VIII
VI
Brian Kirchner
July 6th, 2024: It’s not “doctors bluffing”. That’s absurd. It’s real. It’s really happening.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 6th, 2024: It’s unfortunatly not absurd, that’s what happened in Eire, before the legalisation of abortion.

And the only news source I have from Texas says the baby was still alive, when the court decision was taken. No sepsis as yet.
VII
TonyN
4th of July, 2024: Sorry Hans, but what you THINK has no bearing on the actual reality of what is happening across Red state America right now.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
4th of July, 2024: Apart from one report about Texas supreme court, I have so far no reason to believe it’s anything other than doctors playing smart to make people detest a law they detest for less honest reasons.

For that report, I asked for a link. Have at this moment no confirmation.

VIII
Renee Shelley
July 3rd, 2024: Interesting, seeing as how a woman performed a LEGAL abortion on a ten year old because the kid was raped and the state of Indiana tried to take away her license, and Texas’s Supreme Court blocked an abortion for a woman with a dead baby-she had to leave the state. Under Texas law, her husband can be sued for helping. But go on?
Hans-Georg Lundahl
4th of July, 2024: Would abortion after rape be legal in Indiana? I’d have hoped not. If it’s a question of health for the ten year old, caesarians are a thing, presumably legal there.

As to Texas Supreme court, if it’s not misreporting, I’d like a link to the ruling, and the law it referred to.
Answered twice: IX, X

IX
Malin Senkoe
July 7th, 2024: Only a man would hope that a raped 10 year old should legally be made to go through a pregnancy. Hopefully a man without daughters. I assume your c-section comment is because you DO understand that her little 10 year old pelvis is unlikely to handle birth. What is wrong with you people?

In this case, Indiana did not yet have any abortion bans and were still practicing according to Roe. I’m not sure what their law says now, but it should be easy enough to find.
Roux
July 8th, 2024: A C section is major abdominal surgery. With the attendant risks and recovery. The 10 year old was a little more than 6 weeks pregnant when her pregnancy was discovered. 4 days too late for her to get an abortion in Ohio, which is why she had to go to Indiana.

I don’t know how abortions are done at that stage of pregnancy. It might have been too late for a medication abortion. If it was, they would have done a vacuum abortion. Or maybe a D & C. Any of those would be far less risky and traumatizing for the girl. But that’s Hans-Georg Lundahl seemed to be suggesting. And it’s becoming a thing in the ‘pro-life’ movement. That in cases where a woman is permitted to have an abortion, to save her life, because the fetus has died, or because it’s non-viable (the only reasons some of them find at all acceptable,some of them wouldn’t allow it even in those situations and are fine with having the woman die) they want the doctor to be required to perform a C Section.

The cruelty is the point. Along with punishment for the woman.
Answered twice: reverse order, XII, XI
XII
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 13th, 2024: I actually do not hold non-viable as a valid cause.

When the baby has died it is not an abortion, it’s the extraction of a miscarriage that already took place. Abortion is the provocation of a miscarriage.
XI
Malin Senkoe
July 8th, 2024: The girl in the Ohio-Indiana case had a medical abortion, and fetal tissue was collected for DNA.

I understood it as HG Lundahl wants a ban with no exception for rape, and that the girl should be forced to carry to term (or as close to as possible), and then have a c-section. This makes me angry to even write about. I don’t know if he lacks all the medical knowledge, just don’t care, or both.

I wrote an answer on the topic of this 10 yo a while ago
Malin Senkoe (link)
1 year ago: A 10- year-old was forced to cross state lines for an abortion after Ohio's ban went into place. Why is a ten-year-old having an abortion? (not linking)

Funny. Only reason ever for needing an abortion is pregnancy. If pregnancy occurs in a 10 year girl, it is ALWAYS a result of rape (forced or statutory doesn’t even really matter). At 10, her body is not even close to being ready to bear a child, never mind her mind not ready to be a parent. Nothing about “why is a ten-year-old having an abortion?” makes sense. The only sincere question is “Why is a 10-year-old denied proper healthcare in her home state?”

and there was someone who suggested:

“the baby is still human and could be removed asap during the pregnancy to minimize fame to the child.”

To which i answered:

“You really do value this product of a rape higher than the victimized girl, don’t you? I assume you think a cesarean is a “minor intervention”? And on top of that, you are ready to give that “baby” an extremely tough start too (as a premie). Do you care about any person involved, or just your principles?”

I’m not sure what makes these men think that “need to save the fetus” at all costs is the right thing. I agree it must be cruelty.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 8th, 2024: “(or as close to as possible),”

As close as necessary to save the child.

C-section could in such a case take place after 8 or 7 months instead of 9, to save the mother as well.

I do not think a Caesarian is a minor intervention, but it need not even be necessary.

Sometimes girls of 10 can give birth naturally:

10-year-old gives birth in Spain
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/02/10-year-old-gives-birth-spain
Darlene Kool Iwaki
July 9th, 2024: So you want to traumatize a child with both mental and physical harm for doing absolutely nothing wrong. So the possible life of a rapist child means more than the life of a living breathing person. Wow what is wrong with you people!
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 9th, 2024: Abortion is the traumatising thing.

And even trauma is preferrable to the death of an innocent person.

That babies in the womb haven’t started to breath with their own lungs doesn’t mean they don’t use any oxygen or emit any carbon dioxide, they just do it by the placenta instead.
Darlene Kool Iwaki
July 13th, 2024: So a possible person in the future is worth more than the life of a living breathing human being. No the possibility is not worth more than a person who is already here.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 13th, 2024: It’s not “a possible person in the future” it is a person.

Not doing autonomous breathing doesn’t show otherwise, there are people on life support when the lungs are paralysed, they are still persons. Babies in the womb are already persons.

X
Renee Shelley
July 5th, 2024: It was at the time.

Oh, so child gets raped who probably didn’t understand what sex was. Her body is barely developed. So not only would you TORTURE a CHILD physically, but mentally as well and probably destroy any chance of having children again EVER…..That’s your plan?

You people get so wrapped up in a clump of cells you forget the thinking, living, breathing child. What a horiffic human you are.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 5th, 2024: Thanks, but having her live with “I had my baby killed when I was ten” for the rest of her life is certainly not a better plan.
Renee Shelley
July 5th, 2024: See, again, you are projecting. Torturing and possibly murdering/rendering sterile a ten year old because YOU mistakenly think of a fetus as a baby makes you an awful human.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 5th, 2024: The mistake is all on your side.
Renee Shelley
July 5th, 2024: No dear, the mistake was on the side of the rapist who is now freely allowed to rape whoever he pleases so he can have a baby. Hell, in most southern states he can even sue her as an unfit mother after the child is older, and claim custody.

Again, you are a horrible human for believing a CHILD should be tortured for the violence of a man.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 5th, 2024: Punish the rapist if you want, but not by killing his innocent child.

A pregnant ten year old both is and isn’t a child. Is, since most often too young to have children, isn’t totally, since with child.
Renee Shelley
July 6th, 2024: ….Dude, I had my first period on my eighth birthday. My oldest got hers at ten. That is a CHILD.

I would not punish a rapist by “killing his innocent child”. I would, however, protect both the mental and PHYSICAL health of an ACTUAL child. The one this RAPIST has gotten pregnant.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 6th, 2024: Her mental health is not served by making her participate at least passively in murdering her child.

Her physical health, well, US has good hospitals, that’s one lowering of risk factors.

Having a rapist as father is irrelevant for one’s human value.
Renee Shelley
July 7th, 2024: Ah, so you think her mental health would be better served by forcing her to possibly die and most likely be sterilized to bring the spawn of the man that was evil enough to rape a ten year old to life?

Having a rapist as a father may be “irrelevant” to you, but I assure you the little girl contemplating cutting it out of her own belly with a kitchen knife feels differently.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 8th, 2024: Neither die nor being sterilised is most probable.

If the girl contemplated that, sorry, she directed her anger at the wrong person. Even if you are very hurt, directing your anger at the wrong person is unjust anger.
Renee Shelley
July 8th, 2024: lmao-why don’t you ask them, and let them decide?

And yes, sterilization is highly probable when a CHILD is forced to go through a pregnancy. Just because you want to justify torturing a child, does not make it less true.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 13th, 2024: Avoiding to murder a person, which the partially still child could possibly deliver even without a C-section, is first of all not likely to naturally conduce to sterilisation, and second natural disasters are preferrable over deliberate murder.

Here to show that C-section might not even be necessary:

10-year-old gives birth in Spain
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/02/10-year-old-gives-birth-spain

V
Hans-Georg Lundahl
4th of July, 2024: A Texas woman whose fetus has a fatal diagnosis and who was awaiting a decision from the Texas Supreme Court about whether she would be allowed to get an abortion said Monday that she has decided to leave Texas to get the procedure.

A fatal diagnosis and already partial miscarriage are two different things.

Texas Supreme Court rules against woman who sought abortion hours after she says she’ll travel out of state
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-woman-sought-abortion-court-order-leave-state-rcna129087
Malin Senkoe
July 7th, 2024: Same result if left untreated though.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 8th, 2024: No, first a child with trisomy 18 could die soon after birth, and second, even if the child died in the womb, it would not be too late to extract it after it had died.

The case in Ireland was about doctors not applying the law, probably in order to make it appear odious.

II
Jinx
July 3rd, 2024: Texas
Hans-Georg Lundahl
4th of July, 2024: Do you have a link to the ruling or just to a news story?
M S Echols
July 6th, 2024: Too lazy to look, Hans? Or already know you're repeatedly wrong
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 7th, 2024: First of all, I did find even in the news story that the baby was still alive at the time when abortion was being forbidden.

Second, no, I was not too lazy to look.
III
M S Echols
July 6th, 2024: You are 100% wrong, sadly. Google Kate Cox
Hans-Georg Lundahl
July 7th, 2024: The thing is, Kate Cox’ baby wasn’t dead and rotting inside.

It was alive but with trisomy 18.

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere

Pages

Monday, July 29, 2024

Would to God He'd stayed an Artist!

Sunday, July 28, 2024

Prince Caspian

Thursday, July 25, 2024

As Tolk Lang QQ Keep Dropping In

Wednesday, July 24, 2024

Other Run-In With Joel Henry Hinrichs

What's Molinism Exactly?

Tuesday, July 23, 2024

In Case you Wonder, I'm No Mormon

Tolkienophobia

Thursday, July 18, 2024

Is K-Ar Unverifiable? Quoran Answer Six Years Ago (Disconnected Account)

Wednesday, July 17, 2024

Jimmy Akin Pretty Good on the Other Subjects, Judging from Prior and Following, However YEC vs OEC ...

Tuesday, July 16, 2024

But Not By Musk

Ryan Reeves' Take on the Galileo Trial — and Mine

Oparin's Out, Modernist Dominican Doesn't Get It

Monday, July 15, 2024

Three Warnings Ignored and Rebutted

Saturday, July 13, 2024

Persecutions of Catholics by Protestants, Reformation Era

Pro-Death: Misreporting the Kate Cox Case and Misjudging the Ohio Girl of Ten Case

About Me

Fighting Totalitarian Takeovers