Tyndale

The Church is Not the Restrainer · Tyndale

Tyndale's Brutal Death is NOT What You've Been Told
Truth Unites | 7 Oct. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DetuTE_XCo

Excuse me, but when exactly in the video do you cover how Tyndale and his Inquisitor Latomus interpreted Romans 3 differently, over in Belgium it had nothing to do with an English translation?

Latomus believed in Lordship salvation as do all Roman Catholics to this day.

Tyndale was burned over free grace theology. As was the theology of Luther and Calvin and a few more.

The following comment

seems to have just disappeared. Not sure if the author withdrew it or youtube is misfunctioning and deleting comments galore to make debates intraceable, except that they won't admit that. However, my response is left, so far.

Ace Swizzo

@aceswizzo8665

He said he wasn't going to get into every detail

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@aceswizzo8665 Yeah, but he skipped VERY main ones.

Next day

it is Ace Swizzo's comment that is visible, and my own that's no longer there.

[Other comment]

second mistruth about Tyndale that we need to correct here who 33:56 was responsible for his death here's where you can click off if you're sensitive to violence this is the second 34:03 major false claim and I'm grieved to see how commonly it is repeated people say no no no it wasn't the church authorities that executed him it was the34:09 secular arm and my appeal would be with how terribly Tindale and his friends have already been treated the least we 34:15 can do now is come along after and tell the truth let's explain why that's not truthful and it's pretty easy to see 34:21 once you get the basic Theology of heretic extermination at play in the 34:26 times

According to the traditional understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:7, heretics (including Tyndale's free grace false gospel) are precursors to the Antichrist.

Remember the abortion doctor who was shot by an anti-abortion activist? Dr. George Tiller was "churched" and that in a Protestant Church. Unlike Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden, nobody in his sect (which honours Tyndale) was denying him communion.

Now, in the understanding "the Holy Spirit and the Church are the restrainer" which contradicts Matthew 28:16--20 (at least unless "taken out of the way" means marginalised) and which isn't the Catholic understanding, the Church would have been responsible for burning Tyndale.

We insist the secular arm was directly responsible, because the Emperor in 1536, Charles V, was the then manifestation of the restrainer. Again, had nothing to do with his role as Bible translater. Has everything to do with his free grace theology.

36:45 [citing IV Lateran] "If however a temporal lord, required and instructed by the church, neglects to cleanse his territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with the bond of excommunication by the metropolitican and other bishops of the province."

The immediate application does involve one Bernard Guy (not to be confused with his fictional namesake in a novel by Umberto Eco) who was sentencing about Cathars / Albigensians and perhaps in some cases also Waldensians.

He certainly did decide on "extradiction to the secular arm" (which in practise meant burning) and on other items. From his 930 sentences (some of which may have involved more than one man), 45 + 42 concern burning and burning in effigie (not sure which was three persons more common than the other). Above 300 involve sentencing to prison, and that was the largest number of sentences. Above 100 were releases from prison, I think 145 or sth, so he released between a third and half of those he had imprisoned.

Tyndale in prison had more than one chance to repent, if he had cared to.

The order doesn't mean "burn as many as you can" and doesn't specify the penalty by the secular arm has to be burning. In fact, given the number of people burnt in effigie, there was probably a sense that exile was good enough. Especially as that allowed him a kind of chance to reconsider things.

[The following was based on a misunderstanding on my part, which Gavin Ortlund proceded to correct:]

46:48 Are you under the erroneous impression that Tyndale was executed in Norwich?

Because, if not, why do you pass from Bishop Nix of Norwich to Tyndale's execution?

I'll quote wikipedia for you:

Eventually, Tyndale was betrayed by Henry Phillips[37] to ducal authorities representing the Holy Roman Empire.[38] He was seized in Antwerp in 1535, and held in the castle of Vilvoorde (Filford) near Brussels.[39] ...

... In Tyndale's case, he was held in prison for a year and a half: his Roman Catholic inquisitor, Jacobus Latomus, gave him the opportunity to write a book stating his views; Latomus wrote a book in response to convince him of his errors; Tyndale wrote two in reply; Latomus wrote two further books in response to Tyndale. Latomus' three books were subsequently published as one volume: in these it can be seen that the discussion on heresy revolves around the contents of three other books Tyndale had written on topics like justification by faith, free will, the denial of the soul, and so on. Latomus makes no mention of Bible translation; indeed, it seems that in prison, Tyndale was allowed to continue making translations from the Hebrew.[40] Thomas Cromwell was involved in some intercession or plans such as extradition.[41]: 220 

When Tyndale could not be convinced to abjure, he was handed over to the Brabantine secular arm and tried on charges of Lutheran heresy in 1536. The charges did not mention Bible translation, which was not illegal in the Netherlands.[40]: 317, 321

Tyndale — Wikipedia (accessed 7 Oct 2024)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

Truth Unites

@TruthUnites

No idea what you’re talking about. That section of the video was about Bilney

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@TruthUnites Oh, my bad.

But you never seem to have mentioned (I perused the transscript rather than listen full length) that:

• Tyndale wasn't executed for translating the Bible;
• he very much was executed for his free grace theology.

Obviously, if I misunderstood whom the section was about it is because I jumped ahead.

You gave very long eulogies about Tyndale's Bible initiative, which while it was illegal in Catholic England at its latest century, still isn't offensive to Catholics, wasn't offensive to Catholics on the continent and is highly irrelevant for why Tyndale was executed.

After fleeing, he had several years of adapting to a Catholicism where the Bible (at least in a somewhat reduced form, the Rijmbijbel, comparable to "My Bible in Pictures" comic) was spread among the people, so, if English Catholicism denying laymen the Bible was the point, he had the chance to see pro-lay-Bible-reading Catholicism.

It turned out something else was the point. "Faith, not works" means free grace theology, and the thing about not having Jesus via His Church as Lord of your life, is, they wanted secular rulers and parents and employers to rule more completely.

Gavin then

did not reply, but my response to him is no longer visible, it looks as if he were giving me an unanswered and perhaps unanswerable objection.

___________________
If you attribute the death of Tyndale ("for Bible translation" which actually was illegal in England) to Richard Nykke or Richard Nix, you are adding to the malignations against a man who died blind the year before Tyndale, persecuted by the King just after his attacks on the most Catholic. As he was born in 1447, by 1535, he was 88 years old.

[More thereon in wiki:
Richard Nykke — Wikipedia (accessed 7 Oct 2024)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nykke ]

Cassidy Anderson

@cassidyanderson3722

Even Holy Orthodoxy owes a debt to Tyndall, as the KJV and NKJV are the NT of all English speaking members of the Church. What a blessing it was to already have a great English translation when Orthodoxy finally arrived in the English speaking world.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There was also a Roman Catholic translation available.

Douay Rheims.

JesusIsGod

@JesusAlwaysIsGod

@hglundahl In English before Tyndale?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@JesusAlwaysIsGod Some, yes, though not Modern English.

But I actually meant in English before the Orthodox arrived.

Douay Rheims is after Tyndale but before the Orthodox.

And they use KJV, which is not just after Tyndale, but even after Douay Rheims.

Cassidy Anderson

@hglundahl Isn’t the D-R a translation of the Vulgate, though? The KJV is a translation of our original Greek versions.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@cassidyanderson3722 Tyndale also was based on the Vulgate.

The KJV for OT goes to the Hebrew text, accomodating some to Vulgate and some to LXX.

The OT text is based on a far older Hebrew text in the Vulgate than in KJV.

For Matthew 6:7, KJV (like previously Bishops Bible and Geneva Bible, but not Tyndale or Douay Rheims) mistranslates battologein as "use repetitions" which is not an obvious meaning in Greek and not found in the old translations — Vulgate, Syriac, Coptic).

Seanus

@SeanusAurelius

@hglundahl The D-R is almost a century after Tyndale. What a lot of Catholics don't know is that the DRB got a total rewrite in the mid 18th century by Challoner, and he actually switched to using KJV as the base text type, not the old DRB. In other words, a modern DRB has more in common with the KJV than its predecessor of the same name.

Which actually means that the primary author of the modern DRB is.....Tyndale!

Jd808

@Jd-808

This isn’t true. EOB exists now and the RSV has been used for a long time.

[Presumably in answer to Cassidy Anderson]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@SeanusAurelius At the very least, Challoner did not change the verse Matthew 6:7 in accordance with the series:

Geneva Bible, Bishops' Bible, King James

but, like Tyndale, kept the Vulgate, which is a fair and good rephrasing ad sensum of the Greek text, while "repetitions" is neither good rephrasing nor straight translation, but a personal quirk by Calvin.

In case you missed it, I didn't miss that both DR and KJ are later than Tyndale.

[The following two

began before some of the previous, but ended after]

Truth Unites

@hglundahl I addressed that in the video. It came much later, and wasn’t from the Greek and Hebrew.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@TruthUnites Well, Tyndale at least used the Vulgate, as we can see from his translation of Matthew 6:7 being way more orthodox and Hieronymian than the Calvinist "vain repetitions" in Geneva Bible, Bishops' Bible and King James.

Nonetheless, your video seems based on the premiss that the Catholic Church as such at the time had a big issue with Protestants wanting the Bible in the vernacular, while for instance Luther's was the 19th Bible and first Protestant Bible in the Germanies.

Or that Tyndale was a martyr for his Bible translation, my perusal didn't catch one whit of his being executed for free grace theology.

Some of above comments went down under the video, so I posted a new one:

I think I yesterday went back to the video and posted a comment on Tyndale's free grace theology and how it foreshadowed modern Antichristian society.

It seems to have gone down.

I came to a video entitled "God's Outlaw" but it was clearly shorter than the film from 1986, it was just a discussion.

"Tyndale was Public Enemy Number One 9:35 and Europe's Most Wanted fugitive 9:38 incredibly he managed not only to dodge 9:41 his desperate wouldbe capturers but he 9:43 wrote his most influential peace The 9:46 Obedience of a Christian man this work 9:49 set out much Doctrine but key to it was 9:52 his placing of King above Pope"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAZE2bBtzgg&t=475s

Because the justice that's actually required of a Christian is the social justice of obeying superiors, not the obedience to God, since in free grace theology that's not a prerequisite for salvation. Or (on "total corruption" and "simul justus et peccator" theories) even possible.

[For the moment at least, this one is gone too, could be a delay so Gavin Ortlund could validate.]