Hemant Mehta took on the Flood ...

39 Problems with the Noah's Ark Story
The Atheist Voice | 21.VI.2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyWcka7drWk

Not always answered in numeric order, sometimes I brought together the ones which belong together thematically.

1) where did Noah find enough trees in the Middle East to build a ship of that size?

• a) why "Middle East"?
• b) what are your views of how many trees there were in the Middle East (or tectonic coordinates to become that) prior to the Flood?

Orthanius

"why "Middle East"?"

Because that's where the stories take place.

"what are your views of how many trees there were in the Middle East (or tectonic coordinates to become that) prior to the Flood?"

Why would the "tectonic coordinates" have changed? And why would they have had significantly more trees than they do today?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Because that's where the stories take place."

Is it? Specifically, is it for the pre-Flood world?

"Why would the "tectonic coordinates" have changed?"

Heard theories of plate tectonics changing?

Well, Flood would have been THE occasion (and perhaps some accelerated movements after Flood too, including sinking of Atlantis).

"And why would they have had significantly more trees than they do today?"

Bc even Sahara was wooded back then. Yes, desertification of Sahara falls within post-Flood range of carbon dates.

For one.

2) when did Noah learn to build a ship? who taught him?

It was not a ship, it was an "ark" meaning box.

God taught him at least general proportions and can certainly have contributed with the details, though we are not given them.

3) How did Egyptians need whole armies of slaves to build the pyramids, but Noah and his three sons were enough to build the Ark?

• a) Egyptians were post-Flood.
• b) As post-Flood, Egyptians needed their work done quicker, while Noah had 100 years to go.
• c) A pyramid involves heavier materials needing more chipping than the Ark did.
• d) we don't even know Noah and his sons were the only builders. Nod can have had some kind of socialist arrangement and Noah's Ark can have been authorised as a sponsored project, everyone was laughing at it (except Noah and his family) but lots were working on it.

Checking this last point with the Bible:

Genesis 6:[22] And Noe did all things which God commanded him.

Doesn't say how many were around following his orders.

7:[1] And the Lord said to him: Go in thou and all thy house into the ark: for thee I have seen just before me in this generation.

The Ark is already built, so I'm not holding my breath for more info ... wait .... no I Paralipompenon (I Chronicles) 1 gives genealogies, but no narrative beyond that.

Orthanius

"Egyptians were post-Flood."

No they weren't, they were pre-Flood and somehow came back post-Flood.

"we don't even know Noah and his sons were the only builders. Nod can have had some kind of socialist arrangement and Noah's Ark can have been authorised as a sponsored project, everyone was laughing at it (except Noah and his family) but lots were working on it."

Then why did none of them get on?

"Doesn't say how many were around following his orders."

So you're making things up that the Bible does not say in order to try and make the story more realistic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "No they weren't, they were pre-Flood and somehow came back post-Flood."

They were post-Flood, they descend from Mizraim, which is one son or one group of descendants of Ham who was son of Noah.

Carbon dated 3150 BC is only 2000 BC or less, even back to Nabta Playa we have carbon dates compatible with post-Flood.

"Then why did none of them get on?"

In this hypothesis, because they were like you : they interacted with those who knew what was going on and were not willing to learn.

"So you're making things up that the Bible does not say in order to try and make the story more realistic."

You are making up things it doesn't say to make it less so.

4) How did a family of 8 care for all those animals?

Woodmorappe to the rescue ... no, the feasability study is a whole book, here is a farmer's boy from Netherlands on same question:

How could Noah care for the animals?
by Harrie Thom | This article is from
Creation 30(1):50–51—December 2007
https://creation.com/how-could-noah-care-for-the-animals

Orthanius

You want to compare an entire "box" full of animals to 130 sheep?

How did he discharge the waste to the sea when the only holes in the Ark were the single window and the door to get in?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius You don't know those were the only holes, and if they were you are forgetting straw piled over shit in that box and you are forgetting what worms can do with it.

130 sheep would be 50 times less than the animals on the ark, and some of them hibernating.

Orthanius

"You don't know those were the only holes"

There's no reason to think there were more than the two that were said.

"and if they were you are forgetting straw piled over shit in that box"

Bible says nothing about this, y'all are literally putting words into the Bible's "mouth" in order to make it fit your views.

"and you are forgetting what worms can do with it."

Same as above.

"130 sheep would be 50 times less than the animals on the ark, and some of them hibernating."

....there were 2.6, lets say 3, animals on the Ark with one of them hibernating and 8 humans?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius
"There's no reason to think there were more than the two that were said."

With so short a text, there is plenty of reason to imagine it didn't mention all details.

"Bible says nothing about this, y'all are literally putting words into the Bible's "mouth" in order to make it fit your views."

So are you. Except your views are an attack on it.

"....there were 2.6, lets say 3, animals on the Ark with one of them hibernating and 8 humans?"

If 130 sheep are 50 times less than animals on the Ark, the animals on the Ark are 50 times more than 130 sheep.

6500 is more like it, and I was tired, that is more like number of kinds, most of which had one couple. So, 13000 animals. Btw, medium size would be sheep size according to Woodmorappe's calculations on feasability.

5) Why did a loving caring God have to kill off all but two of every living creature?

• a) why not more (excepting pure animals who were aboard seven of a kind? Space on the Ark had its limits and God wanted to save as many kinds as possible, probably all extant in Noah's day.
• b) why the killing at all? Human society was already global and so bad it needed a disaster. Locally, look at Sodom, then imagine same thing world wide.

Water, with lots of mud covering up over corpses, was a fresh start.

Orthanius

"Space on the Ark had its limits and God wanted to save as many kinds as possible, probably all extant in Noah's day."

If he wanted to save them then he could have just sent a plague to wipe out all of humanity but Noah and his family.

"Human society was already global and so bad it needed a disaster. Locally, look at Sodom, then imagine same thing world wide."

Perhaps if he didn't abandon humanity time and time again, none of these problems would ever show up...

"Water, with lots of mud covering up over corpses, was a fresh start."

Mmmm yes, cover up your mistakes when things don't go your way instead of fixing them.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "If he wanted to save them then he could have just sent a plague to wipe out all of humanity but Noah and his family."

Yersinia pestis developed way later.

"Perhaps if he didn't abandon humanity time and time again, none of these problems would ever show up..."

Man isn't a machine and God isn't in that sense a mechanic. We have free will.

"Mmmm yes, cover up your mistakes when things don't go your way instead of fixing them."

Men abusing their free will is not God's mistake.

6) How did he decide which ones made the cut, what did the other llamas ever do to him?

As said, the problem was human society. Animals were killed along with humans, and two creatures of the kind we are considering made the kind survive.

Llamas may be same kind as camels and dromedars, meaning there was just one couple ancestor of all four species (adding alpacas).

Which ones? The ones nearest to the Ark is one option, the best choice for post-Flood genetics is an option, these options are not exclusive, but best option : God knows.

Orthanius

"Llamas may be same kind as camels and dromedars, meaning there was just one couple ancestor of all four species"

So a "kind" is a Family? Which woman on the Ark gave birth to the other Apes?

"Which ones? The ones nearest to the Ark is one option, the best choice for post-Flood genetics is an option, these options are not exclusive, but best option : God knows."

So then if you're invoking that, then a camel went on board, yes? When will we be seeing a camel giving birth to a llama?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "So a "kind" is a Family?"

Often enough when it isn't wrongly classified.

"Which woman on the Ark gave birth to the other Apes?"

None, classifying us as same family as apes is a wrong classification.

"So then if you're invoking that, then a camel went on board, yes? When will we be seeing a camel giving birth to a llama?"

You and I both believe llamas and camels have a common ancestor, I just believe it is more recent.

7 to 8 Assuming God killed off all the other people, except Noah's family, doesn't that mean God murdered a whole bunch of unborn babies?

Acts of God are not murder. Everyone who dies, dies because God decides. God decides quite a few unborn babies die today, as penalty for Adam' sin.

Orthanius

"Acts of God are not murder."

Yes they are.

"Everyone who dies, dies because God decides."

So he murdered them.

"God decides quite a few unborn babies die today, as penalty for Adam' sin."

Such a loving and good god, isn't he?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius You don't get it.

God is NOT our equal.

His deciding a man dies is NOT an exceptional way for a man to die, but the only one. Whichever means is used.

Therefore, God deciding someone dies is never murder on God's part, even if someone is actually murdering in some cases (like 49 Catholic missionaries were murdered in 2018).

9 If God can do it, how can the religious right say women today can't?

Because they aren't God. They are not equal to God, but in a very real sense equal to the babies they are killing.

10 Where did Noah's ark go? We've never found the remains.

Most objects in history we haven't found the remains of, plus the fact claim is disputed. A land formation on Ararat is at least claimed to be mud heaped over the forms of the Ark.

Whether this is true or not, most history does not depend on finding the remains of the objects.

Orthanius

"A land formation on Ararat is at least claimed to be mud heaped over the forms of the Ark."

Would this be the Durupinar site? Or somewhere else?

"Whether this is true or not, most history does not depend on finding the remains of the objects."

But it does tend to depend on the finding of evidence of such events, especially for something that was worldwide.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Would this be the Durupinar site?"

Probably.

"But it does tend to depend on the finding of evidence of such events, especially for something that was worldwide."

The landing on Ararat wasn't world wide and the world wide Flood is documented in lots of fossils.

Evidence is in history more often narrative than material.

11 Since the story of Noah's Ark wasn't written down until thousands of years after it happened, can't the authors have gotten some stuff wrong?

2957 BC = Flood
1510 BC = Exodus (Moses was 80 and had another 40 years to live)
1447 years.

Earliest parts of the 1447 years, very longlived generations (Shem died at 600, 500 years after the Flood ...).

Then check out how short the chapters 6, 7, 8 and 9 are. Each one is easy to memorise, rehearse and repeat and keep in continuous memory.

Then it can have been written down even before Moses, since Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph all had sufficient infrastructure to preserve written records within the tribe.

Now, there might be some stuff someone got wrong even so, but not with an inspired text (Moses writing the final redaction of Genesis and showing definite proofs of being a prophet sent by God). Even if we forget about Moses or inspiration, we would not be able to prediect exactly what they could have gotten wrong, so we would need to stick with the story as the best account we could get.

I mean the Gospel writers couldn't agree on details in Jesus' life and they wrote that stuff mere decades after he died.

And rose. They do not contradict each other though. It's a question of different redactional choices into same factual memory.

12 Why does the story of Noah's Ark so closely resemble the Epic of Gilgamesh?

Because it doesn't, the epic is about a post-Flood king who just may have been Nimrod .... wait, you mean the Utnapishtim part?

Because Nimrod's people and later Mesopotamians also descend from Noah. It's an early and geographically close to centre pagan version of it, therefore less distorted than some.

Weren't the 39 points supposed to be problems? This one was an asset!

the world's most famous example of plagiarism

No, Gilgamesh author could have gotten many details (including theology, where he had a radically different take) much better if he had plagiarised Moses ... oh, you mean other way round? No, I don't believe that.

Orthanius

Gilgamesh is older than the Noah story, so that doesn't work.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius Except, where is your proof for that?

Carbon dated tablets put it around where I'd might place carbon date of Exodus.

Orthanius

"Except, where is your proof for that?"

Carbon dated tablets put it around where I'd might place carbon date of Exodus."_ C14 dating puts it at ~1775 BC, the Exodus would've been somewhere in mid 1400 BC at best. So Moses actually plagiarized Gilgamesh if plagiarizing went on. Isn't it strange how the Flood stories don't add up? Not only comparatively between Noah and Gilgamesh, but every single one. Considering everyone came from a group of 8 people, why do their myths disagree and differ so badly? It's almost like they're all separate myths that don't share a single event that made them all.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "C14 dating puts it at ~1775 BC, the Exodus would've been somewhere in mid 1400 BC at best."

Roman martyrology places Exodus at 1510 BC.

Now, it doesn't state it would show the carbon date of 1510 BC.

It could be showing carbon dates like 1700 BC ... some Creationists at CMI (OK, at least one) considers Sesostris III as the pharao who died soon after Moses was born.

The carbon date for the wood in his coffin boat is around 1900 BC.

This is contested as incompatible with chronology.

This 1900 BC is then the carbon date for a real date of 1590 BC.

This leaves it open that a tablet for Gilgamesh carbon dated to 1775 BC is from Moses' lifetime.

There are also LOTS of miles between it and known places where Moses lived.

"Isn't it strange how the Flood stories don't add up?"

Not unless you consider traditions from same event hundreds or thousands of years back should add up like eyewitness testimony in one and same case for sth which happened a week ago.

"Considering everyone came from a group of 8 people, why do their myths disagree and differ so badly?"

There is significantly more agreement between Genesis version and most other versions singly than between them.

"It's almost like they're all separate myths that don't share a single event that made them all."

Except they agree on two very significant points, or they wouldn't be classified as "Flood myths".

• a) a world wide flood
• b) a survivor through obedience to a divine tipping off.

13 Where is the evidence of a global Flood that large, only 4000 years ago?

Tons of fossils, many of the land fossils embedded in shellfish ...

Then there is a dating problem, and 2957 BC (as per Roman Martyrology) is about 5000 years ago.

Orthanius

"Tons of fossils, many of the land fossils embedded in shellfish ..."

What? Like what?

"Then there is a dating problem, and 2957 BC (as per Roman Martyrology) is about 5000 years ago."

Unless you go with the date of 2348 BC, which would be 4,367.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "What? Like what?"

Most fossils at all.

If you meant "embedded in shellfish", Ceratopsians from a place in Mexico (lost reference, sorry) from "Cretaceous" lie below decapodes from "Palaeocene."

"Unless you go with the date of 2348 BC, which would be 4,367."

I go with Roman Martyrology, based on a LXX reading.

Orthanius

"Most fossils at all."

If you meant "embedded in shellfish", Ceratopsians from a place in Mexico (lost reference, sorry) from "Cretaceous" lie below decapodes from "Palaeocene.""

So can you link me to any?

"I go with Roman Martyrology, based on a LXX reading."

You follow what the Catholic Church says?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "So can you link me to any?"

I said I had lost reference.

"You follow what the Catholic Church says?"

Yes, but not Modernist Vatican II Sect.

14 How the hell did they fit on there?

Noah didn't have to take fully adult ones. (Dinosaurs).

Orthanius

"Noah didn't have to take fully adult ones. (Dinosaurs)."

Babies require even more care than Adults, eggs require even more special care, special temperatures, and special humidity levels than babies do. Where did the dinosaurs go, and why were they taken on the Ark just to die if YHWH wanted to "God wanted to save as many kinds as possible" as you put it?

Why do we not find dinosaurs mixed in with modern animals if they died during the Flood with everything else?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Babies require even more care than Adults"

We are not speaking of mammal babies, but probably of reptiles with small sizes. You know, reptiles don't take care of their young.

"Where did the dinosaurs go, and why were they taken on the Ark just to die"

Probably some went to Americas, like some dinos from Morrisson and Hell Creek Formations have carbon dates I think are post-Flood (Armitage made sure it wasn't shellac).

Some survived later to when dragon legends are from, or certain animals in Africa (Mokele Mbembe, for instance) or Americas (thunderbirds = pteordactylic kind).

"Why do we not find dinosaurs mixed in with modern animals if they died during the Flood with everything else?"

Biotopes, plus we do. Birds and small mammals have been found along dinos. NOT just by Creationists.

Orthanius

"We are not speaking of mammal babies, but probably of reptiles with small sizes. You know, reptiles don't take care of their young."

Oh okay, so then those definitely require help.

"Probably some went to Americas, like some dinos from Morrisson and Hell Creek Formations have carbon dates I think are post-Flood (Armitage made sure it wasn't shellac)."

It's nothing more than contamination, there's a blatant reason we don't date anything with C14 dating that we know is over 50,000 years old, that's why we have a plethora of other dating methods. And the great thing about those are that they're dated to 22,000 to 39,000 years old, which doesn't fit in with the Bible timeline.

"Some survived later to when dragon legends are from, or certain animals in Africa (Mokele Mbembe, for instance) or Americas (thunderbirds = pteordactylic kind)."

So where are they?

"Biotopes, plus we do. Birds and small mammals have been found along dinos. NOT just by Creationists."

Yes, we find them with animals of THEIR time, we do not find them with modern animals. Mammals and birds were already around back then.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Oh okay, so then those definitely require help. "

On the contrary, they are made so they can take care of themselves.

"It's nothing more than contamination,"

Armitage made real sure to avoid that.

"there's a blatant reason we don't date anything with C14 dating that we know is over 50,000 years old,"

You don't have any reason to believe anything is that old.

" that's why we have a plethora of other dating methods."

None of which even equal carbon 14.

"And the great thing about those are that they're dated to 22,000 to 39,000 years old, which doesn't fit in with the Bible timeline."

If carbon date 37 000 BC is after 2957 BC real dates, we conclude carbon 14 level was real low back then.

If carbon date 20 000 BC is after that, it was somewhat higher, but still rather low.

"So where are they?"

Ask cryptozologists.

And look up in legends from recent premodern times.

"Yes, we find them with animals of THEIR time, we do not find them with modern animals. Mammals and birds were already around back then."

AND some of these mammals and birds of kinds known today.

15 How did the meat eating animals not eat all the other animals?

Could have been fed on fish, for example ... or hibernated, some of them.

Orthanius

How? How are they fishing when all they have is a tiny window?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius It specifically says there was one, it does not say there was no lower orifice to empty waste and get in fish.

16 what did all those animals eat, if not each other?

Plant material, worms and beetles for birds, fish from the surrounding seas ...

17 where was all the food stored and how did it stay fresh?

On the Ark, except what could be gotten from the seas.

Some animals for meat didn't exactly need "fresh".

That was 18 too.

19 Did the animals go to the bathroom at all?

Not those hibernating ...

Apart from that, see again the part the Dutch man's article on CMI, already linked to.

20 where did it all go?

Under straw or into the sea.

21 diseases from piled shit?

See previous.

22 How did Noah collect the tens of millions of insect species alone?

• a) lots fewer kinds,
• b) he didn't, God brough the insects needed for bird food, some of which obviously contributed to both handling shit and preserving kinds after Flood;
• c) to which also insects surviving on floating logs and things like that may have contributed.

For lice, I kind of hope louse eggs were floating around elsewhere ...

23 God knew how to make insects survive, and insects were not "invited passengers" anyway.

They don't have the "breath of life" (they don't have normal lungs tied to normal red blood vessels).

24 and 25 Koalas and penguins are on Australia and Antarctica after Flood, and we still don't quite know the take off was in Middle East, though it would make sense.

I am not sure we know where they lived before the Flood.

26 and after the Flood, how did those animals get back there.

For penguins, probably via Tierra del Fuego.

For koalas, probably via Sahul Sunda strait, during the Ice Age.

27 How did they get all the animals on the Ark that quickly?

God brought them along.

Some being from zoos in Nodian civilisation could explain part of it .... (if you ever do a tunnel under Himalayas like under Mont Blanc, see if you find the cities of Nod ...)

with all the species they needed to get onto the Ark

Kinds. More like family than even genus, with many mammals.

For instance, 16 hedgehog species or these plus 9 species of moonrats (25 species in all) probably evolved after Flood from one couple of hedgehogs.

Snails don't have the breath of life and some could have survived on floating mats of wood or sth.

28 What was the pacing?

I don't know, except that it probably didn't involve waiting for snails to get on board two snails per modern species.

Orthanius

"God brought them along."

Magic never has been and never will be a valid answer.

When you invoke magic, you invoke numerous better ways that all of this should have been done if your god was actually omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent.

"Some being from zoos"

...seriously?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius Magic does happen.

It also means sth other than you think, it means a demon sharing his angelic powers or knowledge with some man who has some kind of direct or indirect deal with him.

"you invoke numerous better ways that all of this should have been done"

Why better?

In fact, I did invoke providence, not necessarily identifiable miracle.

"...seriously?"

Where is your problem?

29 How come they never include the plants?

We don't know exactly what plant material needed the ark to survive and what plant material was needed and brought as food.

Also, plants don't look out of windows, usually.

They wouldn't have been able to live in the water alone

On a log mat of ten tree trunks, one twig doesn't rot, and then that twig gets planted in the mud surrounding the other plants ... no, plants as such don't need the ark to survive and on top of that, they evolve (vary within the kind) lots quicker than animal kinds, look how different apples are from pears and quince or plums from cherries ... or the citrus kind ...

37 Who had time to plant all the plants?

Let's put it like this:

• a) Noah's family were not employees chased 8 hours per day by their employer;
• b) most plants would not have needed them;
• c) some they were very actively planting leading up to agri- and viticultural breakthroughs we know as Neolithic.

30 Which animals on the Ark had lice?

Some which deserved them? Or lice survived as eggs outside the ark (lice eggs in clothes don't die as quickly as lice with no nourishment).

32 How did ants survive?

Perhaps one ant colony of whatever species existed back then was food for the hedgehogs or the birds?

it's not like two of them

As said, not "breath of life" = not invited passengers. = Not necessarily two per kind.

Orthanius

"Some which deserved them? Or lice survived as eggs outside the ark (lice eggs in clothes don't die as quickly as lice with no nourishment)."

Everything was waterlogged, so they couldn't have survived outside of the Ark. Also, they hatch in 7-10 days.

"Perhaps one ant colony of whatever species existed back then was food for the hedgehogs or the birds?"

And they didn't rampage all over the Ark like termites would have?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Everything was waterlogged, so they couldn't have survived outside of the Ark. Also, they hatch in 7-10 days."

Can't they have been dormant?

"And they didn't rampage all over the Ark like termites would have?"

Termites can have developed later from ants or have survived on floating wood outside the Ark.

31 What about gonorrhea?

Pathogens evolve (as in vary within their kinds) even quicker than plants.

Gonorrhea are by gonococci:

Gram-negative diplococci bacteria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neisseria_gonorrhoeae

And back then, Gram-negative diplococci bacteria probably had better ways of living than by doing a gonorrhea on a human host.

They evolved or devolved into that shape much later.

Orthanius

"And back then, Gram-negative diplococci bacteria probably had better ways of living than by doing a gonorrhea on a human host.

They evolved or devolved into that shape much later."

Special pleading with no evidence to back it up I assume?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius Heard of Lenski experiment?

Do you know that bacteriae divide into new ones every half hour?

Do you know that E. coli has in one "tribe" acquired one quality of Salmonella (living off citric acid as well as glucose) and that Salmonella is same type of bacterium?

33 genetical post-Flood diversity?

Inbreeding within several lines of Noachic tribes while they were few would have involved a founder effect.

For Y chromosomes, all lines go back to Noah.

For mitochondriae, all lines go back to his three daughters in law.

For X chromosomes and autosomes, we have three to four versions in Noah and his wife, hence their three sons, and then 3 or 6 more in the daughters in law.

This is where the Neanderthal and Denisovan remains after Flood come in.

Orthanius

"For Y chromosomes, all lines go back to Noah."

Funny, that's not what the science says.

"For mitochondriae, all lines go back to his three daughters in law."

Nope for that one too.

"This is where the Neanderthal and Denisovan remains after Flood come in."

Where did the floresiensis come from?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Funny, that's not what the science says"

Heard of "Y chromosome Adam"? His name is Noah.

"Nope for that one too."

I think the haplogroups divide in three major groups.

"Where did the floresiensis come from?"

Also pre-Flood, probably, and since no human population now has known genes from them, we cannot certainly know they are human, at least from genetic evidence.

Orthanius

"Heard of "Y chromosome Adam"? His name is Noah."

Yes I have, that's why I said it. He was around at best 200,000 years ago, so that doesn't work.

"I think the haplogroups divide in three major groups."

But we have more than that.

"Also pre-Flood, probably, and since no human population now has known genes from them, we cannot certainly know they are human, at least from genetic evidence."

Cool, so it was just some random ape then.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Yes I have, that's why I said it. He was around at best 200,000 years ago, so that doesn't work."

That's relying on a "genetic clock" which may be wrong, plus I think he was more recent even to evolution believers. It's the man all now living men descend from, the definition is not the first man there was.

"But we have more than that."

The mitochondrial haplogroups within the three major groups are more recent than the three daughters in law of Noah.

"Cool, so it was just some random ape then."

Flores hobbit could have been an ape or could have been a very isolated human population from before the Flood (perhaps victim of transgenics experiments, perhaps not, we don't even have a sequencing of the genome, as far as I know) which has no identifiable descendants after the Flood.

34 damages to fish ecosystems?

Well, that would explain why trilobites, ichthyosaurs, and (unless we take Nessie seriously) plesiosaurs are gone.

The fish that are around being those surviving that destruction.

Btw, marine fossils, this involving nearly all or all places where oil is drilled for, would be remains of ecosystems finished off in the mud.

Orthanius

"Well, that would explain why trilobites, ichthyosaurs, and (unless we take Nessie seriously) plesiosaurs are gone."

So all of the giant marine creatures just up and died in something they should have been thriving in? All of those yummy humans and animals YHWH killed just floating around.

"The fish that are around being those surviving that destruction."

So he wasn't trying to save as many as possible like you said then.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "So all of the giant marine creatures just up and died in something they should have been thriving in? All of those yummy humans and animals YHWH killed just floating around."

Why would overdoses of mud help marine giants to thrive?

"So he wasn't trying to save as many as possible like you said then."

God has allowed some kinds to die off, but land vertebrate kinds were symbolically saved by the Ark.

35 after the flood ended, how did these animals survive long enough to reproduce?

What's the exact problem?

if anything went wrong

God saw to it that it didn't.

Elephants, for instance, live pretty long and their couples are faithful.

Makes sense whether the passengers were mammuths, African elephants or Indian elephants.

Orthanius

"What's the exact problem?"

Animals get hungry, animals eat other animals, "kinds" start dying off. Animals don't have parents to teach them how to survive, animals don't have plants growing that they can eat or that they are specialized in, "kinds" start dying off.

"God saw to it that it didn't."

Do you not see how ridiculous it is that you have to invoke so much magic, and yet he didn't just kill all the evil humans?

"Makes sense whether the passengers were mammuths, African elephants or Indian elephants.

So we come back to this yet again, when will an elephant have a mammoth baby?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Animals get hungry, animals eat other animals, "kinds" start dying off. Animals don't have parents to teach them how to survive, animals don't have plants growing that they can eat or that they are specialized in, "kinds" start dying off."

God saw to it all young needing teaching had such, all hungry animals had other things (like fish) to when kinds were beyond immediate extinction.

"Do you not see how ridiculous it is that you have to invoke so much magic, and yet he didn't just kill all the evil humans?"

He did kill off all evil men (or nearly, Ham could have been evil, he turned bad later, but arguably even he was less bad than pre-Flood evil).

He did it in a documentable way.

"So we come back to this yet again, when will an elephant have a mammoth baby?"

Probably other way round.

Or the common ancestor was on the Ark. We both believe there was one.

36 The Bible says rainbows didn't exist before the Flood ...

No, it just says God gave the rainbow a specific meaning just after the Flood.

38 Where did all the water go after the Flood?

Deeper seas and land piling into higher mountains above them. Post-Flood world being lots more wrinkled and vertical accounts for ... most of it getting to Pacific, sooner or later.

Orthanius

No evidence for any of this I take it?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius Even you would accept that Alps, Himalayas, Andes are "young mountains".

Plus, it answers the relevant question. Which is evidence for it.

39 so how come all of their recorded history, all of their documentation that we have doesn't have any mention of the global Flood?

a) many of them do mention there was a Flood; b) chronology is the least reliable part of it - Greek Flood is perhaps 1000 years before Trojan War, meaning about 2200 BC , which is 150 years too recent for Ussher and 750 years too recent by Roman martyrology; c) we definitely do NOT have any documentation where the chronological succession is both sufficiently reliable and can be put into 2957 BC.

We do have some carbon dated ... like early dynastic Egypt is carbon dated around 3150 BC, but that would correspond to Abraham's time, meaning c. 2000 - 1950 BC.

Orthanius

"many of them do mention there was a Flood"

All they have in common is water, after that the stories start greatly conflicting. Cultures that live by bodies of water have stories about them flooding, because that's what bodies of water do naturally. Similarly to how cultures that live in volcanic regions and earthquake prone zones have stories or gods about them as well.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

​"Cultures that live by bodies of water have stories about them flooding, because that's what bodies of water do naturally."

Not world wide, usually.

"Similarly to how cultures that live in volcanic regions and earthquake prone zones have stories or gods about them as well."

These usually not being about world wide eruptions or earthquakes.

Orthanius

"Not world wide, usually."

Floods don't happen all over the world?

"These usually not being about world wide eruptions or earthquakes."

Oh, so just like many of the flood stories then.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius "Floods don't happen all over the world?"

World wide floods don't happen locally around the world.

"Oh, so just like many of the flood stories then."

Of the flood stories, many enough are about world wide floods.

lennyhipp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl hans, unlucky for you, there's ZERO evidence a global flood happened.

@Orthanius NO you ignorant twat, there is ZERO evidence of a global flood is what he was saying. wow you're stupid

@Hans-Georg Lundahl i challenge you to back the claim that many of the flood myths were global. "World wide floods don't happen locally around the world." They don't happen at all, which is the point he was making. DUH

Hans-Georg Lundahl says many dumb things... for instance:

• "a) many of them do mention there was a Flood" There's over 400 flood legends around the world. Not many of them talk about the same flood. It's not at all remarkable there's so many flood legends, EVERY ancient culture HAD TO live around bodies of water. There are two crucial elements of the genesis flood: 1) it was a global flood. 2) a single man saved all the animals on a boat of some sort. Unlucky for you, the flood legends that have both these crucial elements actually PRE-DATE the genesis story. Gilgamesh predates it by 600 years. It's obvious the noah story was plagiarized from the earlier story as there are far too many similarities to be a coincidence. Gilgamesh was stolen from the story of Ziasudra which pre-dates the bible flood by 1000 years. It in turn was borrowed heavily from Atra-Hasis, it pre-dates teh bible flood by 1400 years.
  
  
• b) WHERE is Japan's flood legend? it's surrounded by water.
  
  
• c) we definitely do NOT have any documentation where the chronological succession is both sufficiently reliable and can be put into 2957 BC.
  
  
• d) "like early dynastic Egypt is carbon dated around 3150 BC" please send evidence of this.
  
  
• e) "correspond to Abraham's time, meaning c. 2000 - 1950 BC" wasn't there a bible prediction that abraman's descendents would be as plentiful as the stars? LOLOLOL there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach and desert on planet earth. Just one of many dozens failed biblical porphecies and ZERO true ones.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@lennyhipp "i challenge you to back the claim that many of the flood myths were global."

I'll take one from the Incas, there are three, I'll actually discuss all. I'm taking them from the page Talk Origins.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Inca

• "1) Pictorial records of ancient Incan rulers show that a flood rose above the highest mountains. All created things perished, except for a man and woman who floated in a box. When the flood subsided, the floating box was driven by the wind to Tiahuanacu, about 200 miles from Cuzco, where the Creator told them to dwell. The Creator molded new people from clay at Tiahuanacu. On each figure, the Creator painted dress and hair style, and he gave each nation distinctive language, songs, and seeds to plant. When he had brought them to life, he ordered them into the earth to travel underground and emerge from caves, springs, tree trunks, etc. in their various homes. He then created the sun, moon, and stars. [Bierhorst, 1988, pp. 200,202; Gaster, p. 127; Frazer, p. 271]"
  
  
  • a) for water to rise high on the Andes (which I don't believe existed back in the Flood for real, but that is another story) the Flood would need to be global and leave perhaps some of the Andes and some of the Himalayas uncovered.
  • b) there is a problem of repopulating earth after the Flood, meaning men are not supposed to have survived elsewhere either.
  
  
  
• "2) The creator god Viracocha made the earth and sky, and he created stone giants to live in it. After a while the giants became lazy and quarrelsome, and Viracocha decided to destroy them. Some he turned back to stone, and these stone statues still exist at Tiahuanaco and Pucara. He destroyed the rest with a great flood. When the flood subsided, it left the lakes Titicaca and Poopo, and it left seashells on the Altiplano at elevations of 3660 m. Viracocha saved two stone giants from the flood and with their help created people his own size. He reached down into Lake Titicaca and drew out the Sun and Moon to provide light so he could admire his new creation. In those days, the Moon was even brighter than the Sun, but the Sun grew jealous and threw ashes onto the Moon's face. [Gifford, p. 54]"
  
  
  • a) the Flood seems to cover the living abode of the giants, that is "earth and sky", since only two of them are saved
  • b) there were giants before the Flood (see Genesis 6 for a parallel)
  
  
  
• "3) A large, rich city once existed on the Altiplano. One day, a group of ragged Indians came and warned the proud inhabitants that the city would be destroyed by earthquake, flood, and fire. Most inhabitants just scoffed and eventually had the ragged people flogged and thrown out. Some of the city's priests, though, heeded the warning and went to live as hermits in a temple on a hill. Some time later, a red cloud appeared on the horizon. Soon it had grown and covered the area, and its red glow eerily lit the night. Suddenly, with a flash and a rumble, an earthquake destroyed many of the city's buildings, and a red rain poured down. Other earthquakes and more rain followed, and a flood soon covered the ruined city; this water is Lake Titicaca today. None of the city's inhabitants survived save the priests. The descendants of the prophets became the Callawayas, wise men of the valleys. [Gifford, pp. 55-56]"
  
  
  • a) on the other hand, this one is a local flood, and fire is of equal importance, this is NOT the global Flood of Noah
  • b) but on the other hand, with the fire, and with water covering the area after the fire, this could be the story of Sodom (this presupposes some men came from the Old World after that destruction, and Thor Heyerdahl would willingly oblige to support that theory, were he still alive, at least if he could opt out of the Biblical theology involved (he was a neopagan).

"There are two crucial elements of the genesis flood: 1) it was a global flood. 2) a single man saved all the animals on a boat of some sort."

There are more elements than those, and omission of animals on ark is no more important than including the giants before the flood.

"Unlucky for you, the flood legends that have both these crucial elements actually PRE-DATE the genesis story. Gilgamesh predates it by 600 years."

You are supposing on carbon dates of clay tablets, right?

"It's obvious the noah story was plagiarized from the earlier story as there are far too many similarities to be a coincidence."

The options - I agree on ruling out coincidence - are in fact:

• Mesopotamian story plagiarised the Hebrew one
• Hebrew story plagiarised Mesopotamian one
• both stories go back in more or less fidelity to actual events.

"Gilgamesh was stolen from the story of Ziasudra which pre-dates the bible flood by 1000 years. It in turn was borrowed heavily from Atra-Hasis, it pre-dates teh bible flood by 1400 years."

Again, you are presuming on carbon dating of clay tablets.

"b) WHERE is Japan's flood legend? it's surrounded by water."

Japan was created during or after the Flood by volcanism. The Japanese Shintoist religion actually limits curiosity to creation of Japan and to some ancestry of Emperor Jimmu. This rules out the wider picture in which the Flood actually happened.

"c) we definitely do NOT have any documentation where the chronological succession is both sufficiently reliable and can be put into 2957 BC."

Bible, LXX version and perhaps incorporating corrections from Julius Africanus or Josephus and perhaps based on another manuscript than the current text, plus counting back Genesis 11 genealogies from Abraham born in 2015 BC.

"please send evidence of this."

Of early dynastic Egypt being carbon dated 3150 BC?

"The tomb of Hor-Aha is located in the necropolis of the kings of the 1st Dynasty at Abydos, known as the Umm el-Qa'ab. It comprises three large chambers (designated B10, B15, and B19), which are directly adjacent to Narmer's tomb.[20] The chambers are rectangular, directly dug in the desert floor, their walls lined with mud bricks. The tombs of Narmer and Ka had only two adjacent chambers, while the tomb of Hor-Aha comprises three substantially larger yet separated chambers. The reason for this architecture is that it was difficult at that time to build large ceilings above the chambers, as timber for these structures often had to be imported from Palestine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hor-Aha

Now, earlier on in article it is stated:

"Hor-Aha (or Aha or Horus Aha) is considered the second pharaoh of the First Dynasty of Egypt by some Egyptologists, others consider him the first one and corresponding to Menes. He lived around the 31st century BC and is thought to have had a long reign."

The wiki article on Umm El Qa'ab doesn't show carbon dates, but here we have some:

Hd-12912 tomb B 40 rectangular beam 2nd king of first dynasty 4430 BP +-60, 3300-3240 cal BC / 3110 - 2920 cal BC Hd-12907 same tomb and king, roof-beam, 4440 BP +- 25, 3260-3240 cal BC, 3100-3030 cal BC, 2970-2930 cal BC Hd-12926 tomb B 19 rectangular beam, 1st king of first dynasty 4535 BP +- 40, 3350-3300 cal BC, 3240-3100 cal BC Hd-12947 same tomb and king, fragment of shrine 4505 BP +- 20, 3330-3260 cal BC, 3240-3220 cal BC, 3190-3100 cal BC

From here:

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/3738/3163

Considering Genesis 14 actually seems to involve a carbon date of 3500 cal BC, it might be Genesis 13 actually involves pre-dynastic Lower Egypt, before unification of the two Egypts.

"wasn't there a bible prediction that abraman's descendents would be as plentiful as the stars? LOLOLOL there are more stars in the universe"

According to what calculation? Also, there is a certain indication this does not refer to exact numeric equivalence.

"I will bless thee, and I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the sea shore: thy seed shall possess the gates of their enemies." [Genesis 22:17]

Exact numeric equivalence or general comparison? Check this:

"As the stars of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea be measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites my ministers." [Jeremias (Jeremiah) 33:22]

In other words, not same number as, but innumerable as.

Concluding remark:

it's almost as if the whole story was made up, huh?

No. 39 points have been answered, and neither Hebrews nor other peoples with Flood legends (including Indians who displace Flood to c. 10 000 years before Mahabharata) believed it was a novel invented for amusement.

Orthanius

Have a 40th then.

What is the KT Boundary line, what formed it, and why do the dinosaurs come to a dead stop at it? And why do we not find dinosaurs mixed all together with modern animals as we should if the Flood happened?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Orthanius Point by point:

"What is the KT Boundary line,"

Iridium layer from the Flood.

It goes right through a layer of snails in Yacoraite, which is therefore classified as two layers, a Maastrichtian ("late" Cretaceous) and a Danian ("early" Palaeocene) one.

"what formed it,"

Answered.

"and why do the dinosaurs come to a dead stop at it?"

Because they don't. Most places where dinos are found are places where the iridium layer isn't found. Therefore, you cannot correlate the iridium layer as above or below dino layers.

"And why do we not find dinosaurs mixed all together with modern animals as we should if the Flood happened?"

As said, birds are modern ones : ducks. I think mammals involve modern ones like rats too.

If you mean ALL kinds of modern animals, I already answered elsewhere : biotopes. You don't find moose and elephants same places now.

You didn't find either along sauropods back then.

Orthanius

"Iridium layer from the Flood."

How did Noah's Flood make Iridium?

"Because they don't.

Except they do, dinosaurs aren't found past it.

"Most places where dinos are found are places where the iridium layer isn't found. Therefore, you cannot correlate the iridium layer as above or below dino layers."

Except we can, easily, that's how it works.

"As said, birds are modern ones : ducks. I think mammals involve modern ones like rats too."

So you have some evidence for this modern duck and actual modern rats?

"If you mean ALL kinds of modern animals, I already answered elsewhere : biotopes. You don't find moose and elephants same places now."

That's not what I'm wanting. Dinosaurs were worldwide, therefore we should find them mixed in with modern animals and humans. It's not like I'm asking to see an Anyklosaurus mixed in with a Spinosaurus mixed in with a Polar Bear. Speaking of the moose and elephant, why shouldn't we? You said that Koalas and Kangaroos migrated from the Middle East to Australia, so if everything was living together in the Middle East region before the Flood why wouldn't we?

"You didn't find either along sauropods back then."

Why would you not have?

Not only how did the Flood make Iridium, by why do we not find dinosaurs past it where we do find it? And why do we find fossils past it at all if it marks where the Flood happened?

I assume it has something to do with being the layer showing where the flood water evaporated or something?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

​@Orthanius "How did Noah's Flood make Iridium?" + previous words.

More like a meteorite impacting an unpronounceable (to me) place on Yucatan helped bring about both Flood and iridium layer.

"Except they do, dinosaurs aren't found past it."

Let me help you express what you really mean : dinosaurs are not found in layers labelled as more recent than Cretaceous.

Iridium layer is labelled partly as KT and partly as PT (Permian Triassic) boundary.

In the first case, layers around it will be Maastrichtian and Danian or "further apart in chronology" (mostly without fossils esp land vertebrates) and in the second case layers around it will be labelled as Changsinghian and Induan or even Induan and Olenekian, or "further apart".

Either way, you mostly find the iridium layer in spots where you don't find fossils (exception KT in Yacoraite) and fossils in places where you don't find the iridium layer.

"So you have some evidence for this modern duck and actual modern rats?"

At least ducks. CMI has an article:

Modern birds found with dinosaurs
by Don Batten | This article is from
Creation 34(3):48–50—July 2012
https://creation.com/modern-birds-with-dinosaurs

It features displays from museums.

"That's not what I'm wanting. Dinosaurs were worldwide, therefore we should find them mixed in with modern animals and humans. It's not like I'm asking to see an Anyklosaurus mixed in with a Spinosaurus mixed in with a Polar Bear. Speaking of the moose and elephant, why shouldn't we? You said that Koalas and Kangaroos migrated from the Middle East to Australia, so if everything was living together in the Middle East region before the Flood why wouldn't we?"

While dinosaurs were worldwide, they were not every biotope. I am far from sure every animal had Middle East as natural habitat before the Flood and mentioned zoos as a possibility to how God got exotic animals to the Ark : first a Nodian zookeeper bought them from across the globe, then Noah bought it or some young person on internship takes it from zoo to the Ark ... or cages are damaged in a zoo.

"Why would you not have?"

For one thing, I think sauropods may be living half in water, meaning they need water "to the waist"