Tuesday, April 25, 2023

AiG Seem to be Wrong on How Long one's a Child

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: AiG Seem to be Wrong on How Long one's a Child · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: Wrong Question Answered, Melissa

They’re Doing THIS to NORMALIZE Pedophilia
Answers in Genesis, 24.IV.2023


[link to the first news story quoted]

"Sexual conduct involving persons below the domestically prescribed minimum age of consent to sex may be consensual in fact, if not in law," the Geneva-based International Commission of Jurists wrote in March with an assist from UNAIDS and the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

In Sweden, the law prescribes 15 as minimum age for consent to sex.

If you react to this, are you pretending that every boy and girl under 15 is a child below puberty?

Or are you pretending the puberty God created man to have is less important than some human assessment?

When the Swedish law was being made, Swedes due to climate and poverty not being able to compensate climate, had delayed puberty.

1:13 "it's not biblical in how it approaches any of these things"

When it comes to sex with legal minors, perhaps you are the ones not Biblical?

1:22 Bryan Osborne resumes "children have both the capacity and the legal right to make sexual decisions"

The text from link provided states nothing about "children" but "persons below the domestically prescribed minimum age of consent to sex" - and the terms are not coextensive.

CHILD ends when puberty sets in fully.
PERSON BELOW DOMESTICALLY PRESCRIBED MINIMUM AGE OF CONSENT TO SEX ends at 15th birthday in Sweden, and even in Sweden, nowadays, with electric light and imported vitamin C and less poverty blocking the masses from indigenous health resources, puberty sets in below that age for most.

2:13 In Holy Matrimony, consent matters.

Do we agree that if the bride had a pistol pointed to the back when saying "yes" she is in God's eyes NOT married?

Do we agree she is still not married if it's her parents who are holding the pistol to her back or to the head of her favourite pet puppy or kitten?

FINE. In that case, consent matters for holy matrimony.

Now, Holy Matrimony actually is God's plan for sex.

Any deviance from Holy Matrimony should be judged for how bad it is by how far it deviates from Holy Matrimony.

If two people have sex and both are 18, we are in agreement, that both were consenting to a sin, and if the sin of fornication is not legally punished, then they are not punished.

If the girl is at her 8th birthday instead of 18, we are in agreement that she was not in a position to consent, since, before puberty, she does not fully know what she was consenting to. She can observe, but not comprehend, what the other guy is feeling.

Btw, if someone were to pretend the OT laws don't ban pedophilia, properly so called, in fact they do. Leviticus 15 and 18 show that marriage is to women who can menstruate. In the absence of an NT place directly overturning this, we can conclude it is valid for Christians too.

2:26 As you mention puberty blockers and the harm they do.

They were developed by doctors pandering to parents who were concerned that without them boys or girls might consent to not pre-pubertile, but pre-legal sex. A certain set of doctors in 19th C England pretended 16 was the normal age for puberty, and anything below that was pathological. I am not sure exactly when puberty blockers were developed, but the ideology leading to them was developed by doctors like those, who were also behind the raising of both marital age and consent age in England.

Prior to the 19th C, England had had both for matrimony and for consent outside marriage, two concurring limits - 12 and 10, for girls. Two different laws said two different things. But all agreed, a girl could be married by 13. And that is Biblical. It is also Catholic. The "12" limit was the one inherited from Catholic times.

"In England, the minimum marriageable age was raised to 16 in 1929. Before then, the minimum marriageable age was 12 for females and 14 for males. In 1971, the age of majority was lowered to 18 years old."

Wiki heading the part "Europe" in the article "List of child brides"*

Note, a lot of countries, but not Spain back then and not the Catholic Church, required parental consent to recognise marriage below majority.

Now, let's be precise. The ages 12 for girls and 14 for boys are a European thing. They are equitable, but not identic to the requirement for puberty to have occurred. Some non-European cultures have it as low as 9, as you may know if you know anything about Islam.

2:36 Avery Foley!
Is "deciding to have sex" actually taking it further and beyond "deciding what gender you are"?

I don't think so.

"regardless of the age of that someone"

You talk like the kind of parent who, when a 13 year old daughter says she's pregnant, prefers it's with a teen who can't support a family, and most such parents take daughters to Planned Parenthood. Thank God 13 states have at least partly done away with that, but 37 haven't, and lots of countries over here in Europe have very liberal abortion laws, and more abortions than US had during the Roe v Wade era.

2:53 "what we know about the cogniscence of children"

Things like "the brain is not fully developed below 25" / "you are not ready to consent to marriage at least when your brain is still developing"?

Are you also a defender of "what we know" about 60 million years without living dinosaurs?

The point being, the kind of things you need for business decision making (which is what majority was originally about) may be different from what you need to decide whom you like and trust enough to marry him (if he's on his part clearly old enough). Hence, perhaps majority might be at even 25, but minimum marriageable age should not be.

Obviously, that is the minimum age for when fully lawful sex can be consented to.

Meaning even outside marriage, a man who has sex with a 12 year old girl who says she consented should not be punished for statutory rape. He should be punished for not marrying her, if that's what she was ultimately expecting.

It is one thing to consent to the sex part, another thing - not just at 12, but even at 22 - for a woman to consent to the "casual" part.

Unfortunately, not marrying a girl whose virginity you have taken is no longer punishable. In certain times, it was punishable by death, like in 16th C. Spain (both Lope de Vega and Calderon de la Barca wrote a play each called El Alcalde de Zalamea, involving a real life event, when a nobleman seduced the mayor's daughter in Zalamea, and got executed by the mayor for not marrying the girl whose virginity he had taken).

4:17 "everyone is doing it"

What do you expect with:

  • raised minimum marriageable age
  • compulsory school beyond puberty
  • most countries compulsory coeducation?

At 15, "Contraceptive Use by 15-Year-Old Students at Their Last Sexual Intercourse"** states that:

  • in 24 countries
  • boys having sexual experience at 15 range from 17.2 % (Spain) to 47.1 % (Ukraine)
  • girls having sexual experience at 15 range from 2.7 % (North Macedonia) to 39.9 % (England)

In England, Scotland and Wales, they could be married in theory by next year, in Israel too, I think, in Spain they would need to get the adjudication of a judge (the younger one writing application letter), but could in theory have had it since previous years. In most other countries of the 24, they would have to wait to 18.

Why? Because legislators have gone along with "the brain is not fully developed below 25" / "you are not ready to consent to marriage at least when your brain is still developing" ... and by extension also not ready to be an unmarried mother, so, the pseudo-science is pushing for abortion.

4:42 "the only rule is consent"

Are you aware that people sometimes study one topic at a time, Avery Foley?

Are you aware that the main reason why a man my age would spend years in prison and perhaps the rest of his life on a sex offender register if lying with a girl of 14 is precisely because the legislators behind "statutory rape" laws have pretended she is not able to precisely consent?

The report is not pushing for consent being the only rule that matters in sexual morality.

The report is not pushing for consent being a valid reason to accept a sex change.

The report is not even stating that statutory rape laws should be repelled. What it is saying is, if a man according to the law is condemned to prison for statutory rape of a 14 year old girl, he may be presumed a felon, according to the law, but not a monster who raped a toddler. Because, you - Bryan, Avery, probably Jennifer too - seem as confused about age as some are about gender, and you are so willing to put toddlers, prepuber children, and 14 year olds into the same category morally, just because they are in the legal category "minor" ...

5:39 Bryan:

While the report was made within the UNO, you can't presume all the lawyers involved are non-Christians who have abandoned God's law.

Consent is obviously from God's law. A girl younger than 15 being able to marry in more normal societies, than ours, and therefore also to consent to sex (note, I am not stating that she's really able to consent to the casual part of casual sex!), that is also from God's word.

On this one, you are the guys who are on the side of Modernist, Antichristian Pseudo-Science, not in principle all that different from the lies of Lynchburg by Galton and Darwin.

Avery, a little before:

Your rationale extended to teens is in fact the rationale used by Socialist countries like Sweden or Norway to ban homeschooling and heavily restrict private schools, or to steal children from "unsuitable" (including "too Christian") parents galore.

You are giving the modern day equivalent of Commies the perfect excuse.

Plus it's one where teens and early twenties young adults are too easily pushed into delaying marriage more and more. Which is why the pensions are going down in Europe (France was late, Poland will arguably be later, Sweden was actually earlier). In 9 years, or so, it will be your turn in the US. Get the young married earlier, and stop over protecting them.

CSL in The Abolition of Man predicted the possibility of a generation he actually called X, which would be more free from influence by their parents and more influential on their children than any before. In fact it has been two generations. My mother's and my own. Upwards it's "oh, that's what they thought back then, when they didn't know better" and downward it is "oh, these are children, we need to protect them, we can't let them decide anything!"

6:37 This part of the report (on abortion) was obviously made by antichristian participants.

That may include pseudo-Christians, like formerly Kirill of Moscow, presently quite a lot of Lutherans and Anglicans, where modernism is the mainstream.

8:39 I think I am agreeing with your points for the rest of the video ...

That said, you could have shown some compassion for the proposed sex offenders on parole in New Mexico possibly getting chemically castrated.

Deuteronomy 22:28f says at least some sex offenders deserve more humanity than that. [proposal of Stefani Lord]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides#Europe
** quoted in