Tuesday, March 26, 2024

Palestinian Origins


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Q
If the "Palestinians" supposed to be indigenous to the region, why they're still speaking an Arabic dialect/variant instead of reviving/revitalizing an extinct/a moribund Hebrew dialect/Canaanite language (e.g. Samaritan Hebrew)?
https://www.quora.com/If-the-Palestinians-supposed-to-be-indigenous-to-the-region-why-theyre-still-speaking-an-Arabic-dialect-variant-instead-of-reviving-revitalizing-an-extinct-a-moribund-Hebrew-dialect-Canaanite-language-e-g-Samaritan/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2


Hans-Georg Lundahl
amateur linguist
26.III.2024
2000 years ago, both Jews and Christians (or back in AD 24 more like future Christians, still Jews), spoke mainly Aramaic, though they knew Hebrew for the liturgic uses.

After 600 and before 700, Omar conquered the region and forced part of them to become Muslims.

The Muslims adopted Arabic from the Peninsula, language of a minority of conquerors, by 900 AD.

The Christians were still speaking Aramaic in the time of the Crusades, they were pushed to adopt Arabic in the time of the Countercrusade (Muslim rulers like Baybars). So, the reason is a bit why Irish, descending mainly from Gaels, mainly do not speak Irish Gaelic, but English.

I

Jeric Ilagan
26.III.2024
Tuesday of Holy week
Oh yes, the classic case of Ireland (and Scotland).

Hans-Georg Lundahl
29.III.2024
Good Friday
They are not really comparable, you know.

I specified Ireland, even more specifically Irish Gaels, because I think it’s parallel to the Palestinians in language change.

Jeric Ilagan
30.III.2024
Holy Saturday
I stand corrected.

II

Zhun-Yong Ong
28.III.2024
Maundy Thursday
There were Arabic speakers in Israel long before the Islamic conquest. You can find the ruins of Nabataean settlements such as Avdat in southern Israel.

https://en.parks.org.il/reserve-park/avdat-national-park/

The Qedarites were attested in the Levant by the 9th century BC.

Qedarites - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qedarites


Hans-Georg Lundahl
29.III.2024
Good Friday
As I read the map, there were more Qedarites on the Peninsula than in Avdat.

I’ll quote a part of the wiki:

Attested from the 9th century BC, the Qedarites formed a powerful polity which expanded its territory over the course of the 9th to 7th centuries BC to cover a large area in northern Arabia stretching from Transjordan in the west to the western borders of Babylonia in the east, before later moving westwards during the 6th to 5th centuries BC to consolidate into a kingdom stretching from the eastern limits of the Nile Delta in the west till Transjordan in the east and covering much of southern Judea,[dubious – discuss] the Negev and the Sinai Peninsula.


So, the idea that they were in Southern Judaea is dubious.

Going to the link in Israel parks site, it seems Avdat is indeed in modern Israel, but it’s still the Negev.

Would you mind explaining how Avdat was identified as Qedarite rather than Jewish?

Zhun-Yong Ong
30.III.2024
Holy Saturday
So, the idea that they were in Southern Judaea is dubious.


Even so, Southern Judea is only a small part of modern Israel and an even smaller part of the Levant. The Qedarites were found in the Negev and also across the Jordan river.

Going to the link in Israel parks site, it seems Avdat is indeed in modern Israel, but it’s still the Negev.

Would you mind explaining how Avdat was identified as Qedarite rather than Jewish?


I did not say that Avdat was Qedarite.

Avdat was a Nabataean settlement.

From https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/avdat :

The little we know about the Nabateans comes from Roman historians and geographers. They were nomadic tribes from northern Arabia who wandered and traded, then established permanent settlements and finally created an independent kingdom with Petra, in the mountains of Edom, as their capital. At the climax of their power, from the first century BCE to the first century CE, the Nabatean kings ruled regions that today belong to Jordan, Syria, and Israel. Their contact with the Hellenistic world had great influence on their material culture, uniquely manifest in their architecture.

The Nabateans accumulated great wealth from their trade in costly perfumes and spices from East Africa and Arabia which they transported by camel caravans to the southern Mediterranean coast, with Gaza serving as the main depot and port. The Negev was the direct overland link to the Mediterranean coast, and the Nabatean way stations at the main crossroads in the Negev, developed into cities. In this inhospitable desert region, the Nabateans developed an agriculture based on terraces built on the hillsides. To capture flood waters, they constructed dams in the valleys; to collect rain water, they cut cisterns in the rock. These measures, initiated by the Nabatean central administration, established their control over the Negev and guaranteed the caravans’ safe passage.


The Nabataeans were Arabs. You can visit Nabataean ruins in Jordan and Israel.

Nabataeans - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans


Hans-Georg Lundahl
30.III.2024
Holy Saturday
Ah, Avdat was Nabataean and in the Negev.

It’s South of Judaea in the historic sense, South of West Bank, South of Gaza strip.

Like Southern Jordan, it’s in historic Edom.

I do not deny that Palestinians may have partly Nabataean ancestry as well, but pointing at them as the main ancestry would be idiotic, given that Christian Palestinians spoke Aramaic up to after the Countercrusade.

And given that a large origin of Muslim Palestinians are descended from:

  • Christian Palestinians
  • Jews,


it won’t fly to consider them either as mainly Nabataeans.