Dialogue with jp byrne · Also Under Same Video
- Most of people's perceived beliefs throughout history have been wrong. Why should the Catholic church be considered differently, unless you already believe in the authority of the Catholic church, in which case who are your expecting to convince?
- History is what you can rely on. The history in question being the writings of the church fathers from the first century (60AD up to 5th century). These writings are available in books or online (for free).
When you research the writings of the first Christian’s you can see their stance on many topics including church traditions (Mary virgin birth, Mary sinlessness, infant baptism, intercession of saints, real presence of Jesus in Eucharist, apostolic succession, Peter’s primacy, the role of Pope, apostolic succession, sacraments of the church)
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- "Most of people's perceived beliefs throughout history have been wrong."
How do you reason that?
- @Hans-Georg Lundahl Because humans' understanding of creation has constantly diverged over time as we developed more sound grounding. Even if you don't consider the scientific grounds, most of humanity has adhered to now dead religions.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @BillyBruiser Thank you for the answer.
A) I disagree on the "science" being good. I believe not only in Young Earth Creationism, but also in Geocentrism and Angelic movers for the heavenly bodies.
This pretty obviously makes for a disagreement on "most people's perceived beliefs throughout history" being wrong. My views are clearly closer to most people throughout history than yours.
So was the case for Church Fathers and Council Fathers at Trent who came up with "consensus of Church Fathers" as a specific regulation against doctrinal deviance.
B) I do not believe in Odinism or Olympianism or Zuism. But that applies to the overall packages. I believe most individual beliefs within any one such system were either correct, or near correct, or at least innocuous.
The reason I refer to them as "false religions" is, the remainder is contradicting the true one.
If you see that "false religions" for a Christian cannot reasonably mean "a religion where 100 % of the tenets are false" but that false religions are false only in a smaller part of the tenets, you must be able to see that a Christian means Christianity is true on 100 % of the tenets, at least the obligatory ones.
From there on, you can make an equation or analogy:
False religions are mostly true : their traditions are mostly true
The true religion is entirely true : its tradition is entirely true.
- @Hans-Georg Lundahl That's interesting. Thank you also.
A) I won't argue on the science being good because there's certainly a lot of "make believe" in things like dating the earth, evolution, and Big Bang. Personally, my belief in these kinds of things are generally that we don't know for sure and I'm okay with not knowing. It's a mystery of God, at least for now.
B) This is more uncomfortable. I think I understand what you mean about accepting some of the tenets of "false religions," but at the same time, Satan is the deceiver. His modus operandi is making people see evil as good. I don't want to give him credit for anything. I don't think that was your intent. It's just my personal approach. The equation presented doesn't account for chaos, either the evil or human element.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @BillyBruiser Zuism has as tenet that there was a global Flood.
Must I reject it because it is a tenet of Zuism?
"The equation presented doesn't account for chaos, either the evil or human element."
C) I mentioned that there was a majority, far from a totality of true tenets in the false religions - a little is bad enough if it's evil. It's a tenet of the Greek religion that Apollo successfully predicted what Oedipous would do, an also that Apollo can therefore be relied on. It's a tenet of Thomism that demons can make predictions come true by chosing what will bait the ones concerned into fulfilling them themselves. So, I agree with Oedipous being fact, I disagree with relying on Apollo, very vehemently.
D) when it comes to the true religion, Christ made a promise to His Church: the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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