Sunday, February 12, 2023

Kayleigh Took on Episode 2

Alivia Brown took on Graham Hancock · Kayleigh took on Graham Hancock · Kayleigh Took on Episode 2 · Kayleigh Took On Malta - Sirius (Episode 3) · Kayleigh on Atlantis (Episode 4) · Göbekli Tepe

Ancient Apocalypse, Ep 2. Who Built Cholula?
History with Kayleigh, 4 Dec. 2022

2:16 No, exceptional claims, like any other, need adequate evidence.

3:01 "there are no documents of the past, of the ice age"

I'd disagree.

10 And these [are] the generations of Sem: and Sem was a hundred years old when he begot Arphaxad, the second year after the flood. 11 And Sem lived, after he had begotten Arphaxad, five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 12 And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan. 13 And Arphaxad lived after he had begotten Cainan, four hundred years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and begot Sala; and Cainan lived after he had begotten Sala, three hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 14 And Sala lived an hundred and thirty years, and begot Heber. 15 And Sala lived after he had begotten Heber, three hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters, and died. 16 And Heber lived an hundred and thirty-four years, and begot Phaleg.

From Genesis 11, LXX, English translation of opposing Greek text on Ellopos site.

Omit, as some manuscripts of the LXX do, the Second Cainan, and what you get involves Peleg or Phaleg born 401 after the Flood, at the highest levels of Göbekli Tepe, dated 8600 BC, and the series starts at carbon date 39 000 BP. Between them, death of Noah in 350 after the Flood, is around where Göbekli Tepe's lowest level is, 9600 BC in carbon dates.

I get carbon dates for Noah's death and Peleg's birth by assuming Göbekli Tepe is Babel, and I get carbon date for the Flood with latest pure Neanderthal (body parts, not tools in Gibraltar cave) dated 40 000 BP, and volcanic ash from Flegreic Fields Eruption carbon dated 39 000 BP.

3:29 "myths, legends and folktales aren't archaeological evidence"

Apart from admittedly fictitious and entertainment only fairytales like Tom Poes by Marten Toenders, but anonymous, they are historic evidence. Not admitted as such by all schools, but should be admitted.

"and they aren't considered in archaeological research"

Arthuriana are considered in some historic research.

A local legend about a knight being buried at a specific place where he had fallen led to an excavation which unearthed a Viking chieftain buried at that specific place.

So, there are examples of them being considered in archaeological research.

Not to mention the ultrafamous one, Schliemann. The Iliad and the Odyssey were material transmitted orally for about 400 years between events and final poet, by then one can consider them legends. Archaeology has not been able to dismiss them as fiction.

Hittites had been dismissed as fiction, until Hugo Winckler and Bedřich Hrozný corrected that.

Babel has been dismissed as fiction, if Klaus Schmid didn't personally correct that directly, he has contributed to my correction of it.

3:36 The Telephone Game is an excellent model for urban rumours.

It's a lousy model for transmission of tradition over generations.

The latter observation is not limited to the times in the Bible when there was oral transmission before the writing down, as very probably for first 11 chapters of Genesis, and fairly probably over some generations in the family leading from Ruth and Obed to King David, arguably committed to writing in his time. Or even more probably when he was still serving under Saul:

"It is thought this book was written by the prophet Samuel." (from Haydock comment preface to the book of Ruth).

It is equally valid for later Christian and even non-Christian traditions about historic facts.

Dismissing legends because of the telephone game as as stupid as dismissing .... archaeologists, and what they dig up.

4:46 Did I hear a reference to "Den Konink van Hispanië"?

It didn't exactly sound like "heb ik altijd geërd" ...

"In 1517, Cholula seceded from the Tlaxcala Triple Alliance, opting to join the far more powerful Aztec equivalent. In 1519, the Tlaxcalans led Cortés and his troops to Cholula to facilitate an act of retribution against the city for its betrayal. Cholula, which was south of Tlaxcala and farther southeast of Tenochtitlan, was out of the way to the Aztec capital, so its visit was a Tlaxcalan machination, not a Spanish one. After a Cholulan welcoming ceremony made up of speeches and feasts, conquistador Bernal Diaz accounts that the Spanish soon became suspicious of the Cholulans' true intentions. According to Diaz, the Spanish were taken aback by Cholula's supposed trenches and dugouts with anti-cavalry spikes, alongside conspicuous piles of rocks found on Cholulan rooftops. Modern-day revisionist historians such as Matthew Restall agree that the Tlaxcalans, successfully executing a plan to use the Spanish as a tool of political advancement, persuaded Cortés into believing that the Cholulans were conspiring against him. Diaz alleges that, after feigning a Spanish departure in the city's central plaza to attract a large crowd of onlookers, Cortés suddenly announced that the Cholulans had committed treason, and thus had to be put to the sword. Blocking the exits of Cholula's great plaza, the conquistadors proceeded to massacre the unarmed crowd, purportedly leaving no survivors."

It might not seem somewhat appropriate to damn the Aztek alliance which each day killed people to give "heart transplants" to the sun, which they thought needed that?

11:57 The pyramid is the easiest way to build high.

All people are concerned with the afterlife (or absence of it).

These two universals do not add up to a third universal propensity to build pyramids for the afterlife in one way or another.

I don't claim to know the associations that other than Egyptian pyramids have, except the Ziggurats seem to have had more to do with astrology and the stars affecting this life, but if all non-Egyptian and non-Mesopotamian structures can be associated with one or both of these two ideas, that's a pretty huge non-coincidental and non-universal cohesion of motive. I don't know if the Aztek pyramids should be counted here, since they seem to have been associated with keeping poor weak sun alive, by giving him daily "heart transplants."

12:42 Knowing the importance Graham Hancock gives Göbekli Tepe - the henges look more like it, than the pyramids do.

Speaking of henges ... Göbekli Tepe was abandoned carbon dated 8600 BC.
A first foundation for Stonehenge was laid carbon dated 8000 BC.
The stones actually arrived c. - looking up - Stonehenge 1 (c. 3100 BC) - carbon dated, of course.

Let's go to my tables, and see what we can make of this in real dates.

8600 BC = 2556 BC
8000 BC = 2511~2489 BC
3100 BC = 1801 BC

So, 56 years to make a kind of foundation, another 700 before you succeed in starting to get stones there. Sounds reasonable, especially if those arriving from Babel were as yet undermanned for the project in 2500 BC.

I made this an argument both for GT = Babel and for my tables early on in my research in recalibrating carbon dates. Biblically, of course.

15:10 "the theosophical set of races being the origin of all modern races"

I seem to recall that theosophy is somewhat racist from time to time ... is Figato not borrowing from Мада́ма Елена Петровна Блаватская ...?

The "knechten van Hispanië" by contrast, either were obeying the Catholic Church in believing the indigenous naturally equal to themselves and only morally inferior (which their particular version of sunworship makes seem somewhat motivated, to say the least), or disobeying Her by concluding people who sacrificed children to false gods had to be beasts ... nope, that perversion is only possible in Adam's fallen descendants.

Oh, sorry, Marco M. Vigato - V in Italian is not pronounced as in Dutch.

16:54 The idea that Azteks took over the site could not have some support in the idea it was built by giants?

Before we dismiss that info as given by Spaniards for bad reasons, have you heard of Anasazi legends about giants?

In my opinion, I would rather favour the idea of physical giants with very bad manners, who may have given the Azteks some bad examples ...

18:03 Olmecs arrived on the scene some time carbon dated 1400 BC - which would not be very far from the actual date (in my tables, 1470, 40 years after Exodus, carbon dates as 1550).

This was not very far from the time when Goliath and Og lived in the Holy Land.

My theory : Olmecs were not all of them giants, but they had giants among them. Pretty morally stupid people, like Goliath. Hence the bad influence on later cults of the area ...

And, to Thor Heyderdahl, Olmecs would have been enough and plenty to tie it in with a global network of pyramids and extreme social stratification.

See his expeditions Ra and Ra II.

19:01 Insofar as Graham Hancock resumes myths all over the world correctly (not sure I am confident about that), this sounds exactly like the role Nimrod would have been taking on in Babel (aka Göbekli Tepe), acknowledging Noah in ways Noah would not have recognised (see the Gilgamesh Epic - what Gilgamesh finally reports about Utnapishtim being an immortal collides heads on with the Bible) ...

Foreseen objection : Gilgamesh epic is from c. 2000 BC, Göbekli Tepe is from 8600 BC or even 9600 BC, besides actually from both and therefore exceeds the lifespan of a man ...

My tables, again. Göbekli Tepe is starting in 2607 BC or soon after that, and ending in 2556 BC or soon before that. The Gilgamesh epic is according to carbon dates associated with oldest tablets (like wool covering of tablets, I presume) and according to my recalibration, from c. 1590 BC, when Moses was born. I e less than 1000 years after the events at Babel in a region that is getting lots of humanitarian aid right now.

19:49 I would rather consider that Cuetzalcoatl was a Canaanean epigon of Nimrod - trying, fairly successfully, to do similar stuff in the world he had reached in a reed boat of the Egyptian style ... along with other Olmecs.

Later explored by Thor Heyerdahl as also present in the names of Kon, Tiki and Viracocha. Or some of them may have been epigons of Cuetzalcoatl.

20:06 700 AD was certainly not the arrival of the Olmecs to South and Middle America. That happened in 1400 BC, carbon dated, i e 1364 ~ 1341 BC.

From the Old World, mange tak, Thor!

By that time, the civilisation had over there been (partially) restored and then splintered since 2556 BC

Their first big attempt was the one 2607 ~ 2556 BC. After some 350 years of mostly ice age and mostly hunter gatherers, since 2957 BC, which was the cataclysm, carbon dated to 39 000 BC.

The reason why one can classify it as lost is, we find people from before then living like Chingachgook, but we have not yet found people from the back then Versailles (or rather as haughty as to make Lewis XIV look like a modest chap) - we have not found the material remains of the Nodians.

But we have found parts of the story of the Nodians, in Genesis 4 and 6, and in Mahabharata.

My tables take care of the large time lapse problems for what Graham Hancock has to say.

He once (in previous material, before the Netflix series), showed a miniature model of what looked pretty Göbekli Tepe found in Woolley's Ur. On his view, 4000 years of mysteriously preserved exact memories, and on my view more like 600 years. Let's check, I think it was ... looked up.

Gobekli Tepe image on Sumerian tablet?*
Graham Hancock, Published 17th May 2016

Uruk V for the tablets, that's Genesis 14.

So, from 2556 BC to 1935 BC (real time of Genesis 14, carbon dated to 3500 BC, as per arcaheology of En-Geddi) .... 621 years.

The lapse between original and model becomes far more credible with my dating ...

21:22 "archaeology isn't based on ideas"

Correct. That is the role of history.

"it is based on science"

It is in part based on sciences, and in part based on paradigms, which are not necessarily as scientific as one would like, just because they are applied in a field labelled as a science.

You have given the Telephone Game as a bad parallel to tradition, you may find my parallel to this a bit annoying as well : astrology has a paradigm. This paradigm doesn't become observed science about the character of someone born in sun in virgo, ascendent pisces and a few more. Even if the field actually does use a lot of scientific observations to determine when this planet was in that sign or that planet in that other sign ...

A paradigm isn't an observation.

22:00 "Ideas brought up only afterwards, not before, and definitely not at the hands of a folk-tale"

Why do it at the hands of any recorded history at all, then?

Folk tales are one way in which history is recorded.

22:30 Newgrange.

"The original complex of Newgrange was built between c. 3200 and 3100 BC. According to carbon-14 dates, it is approximately five hundred years older than the current form of Stonehenge and the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt, as well as predating the Mycenaean culture of ancient Greece."

Now, what does Irish mythology have to say?

"In Irish mythology, Newgrange is often called Síd in Broga (modern Sídhe an Brugha or Sí an Bhrú). Like other passage tombs, it is described as a portal to the Otherworld and a dwelling of the divine Tuatha Dé Danann."

"In one tale the Dagda, the chief god, desires Boann, the goddess of the River Boyne. She lives at Brú na Bóinne with her husband Elcmar. The Dagda impregnates her after sending Elcmar away on a one-day errand. To hide the pregnancy from Elcmar, the Dagda casts a spell on him, making "the sun stand still" so he will not notice the passing of time. Meanwhile, Boann gives birth to Aengus, who is also known as Maccán Óg ('the young son'). Eventually, Aengus learns that the Dagda is his true father and asks him for a portion of land. In some versions of the tale, the Dagda helps Aengus take ownership of the Brú from Elcmar. Aengus asks to have the Brú for "a day and night", but then claims it forever, because all time is made up of "day and night". Other versions have Aengus taking over the Brú from the Dagda himself by using the same trick. The Brú is then named Brug maic ind Óig after him. In The Pursuit of Diarmuid and Gráinne, Aengus takes Diarmuid's body to the Brú."

In another tale, as I recall, the sungod Lugh is buried there.

Now, can this tie in with Egypt? Yes.

The date for Newgrange is approximately compatible with the date for Narmer or Hor-Aha. Suppose Narmer was Abraham's pharao, in 1935 BC and a year or some earlier, and Narmer's own burial is lost.

What if Narmer died a little later and was buried, way from Egypt, in his land of origin, Ireland? The date of Newgrange is compatible.

Carbon date 3200 BC in my tables comes at 1823 BC, we'll suppose either a wiggle in the carbon 14 levels, or Narmer's body came later.

What did Abraham's pharao do? Desire someone else's wife. What do we find in the myth surrounding Newgrange? A ruler desiring someone else's wife.

What do we know of elves in Irish lore? They were naked and had no shame. What would Ancient Egyptian clothing look like on Ireland? "They were naked and had no shame."

And a later pharao, presumably descending from Narmer was a haplogroup R1b or sth, found also in the British Isles. And a documentary about Narmer's unification of Egypt spoke of the Falcon Tribe as foreigners. AND one of the mythological gods of either Ireland or Wales is described as - a falcon.

This is presumably what Graham Hancock would regard as "archaeology of ideas" which, as you mentioned, is clearly another field than archaeology.

Archaeology means looking at a hill and digging up a city buried under it (as Schliemann did). Archaeology of ideas is connecting the similarities of stories or other complexes of ideas.

Citing myself:

"In another tale, as I recall, the sungod Lugh is buried there."

And Osiris is supposed to have gone to the land of the dead in the West - as I recall - and be ancestor of - tada - pharaos.

23:02 He should not be treated as pseudo-archaeologist, since his speciality is "archaeology of ideas" which is another field.

Thor Heyerdahl was both that and archaeologist proper and experimental archaeologist (notably with pre-modern and pre-Classic means of sea travel).

But archaeology of ideas is another field.

And, unlike what you and he both suggest, it works better if timelines are shortened, that is, if carbon dating is reduced in timeline.

* Cited on my post:
Creation vs. Evolution : Graham Hancock had sth to Say on Göbekli Tepe