Monday, February 13, 2023

Some More Threads Under Emma Thorne's Video about "Helen"

Creationism Isn't a Conspiracy Theory and Enabling a Precocious Child is Not Exploitation! · Continuing with CallMeConvay · Some More Threads Under Emma Thorne's Video about "Helen"


David Wilcox
This reminds me of clips I have seen on 4 and 5 year old 'preachers'. The child may be able to parrot their patches words and mannerisms, but that does not mean they actually deeply understand what they are doing.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
For 4 or 5, you may have a point, very legitimate.

We were talking about 11.

David Wilcox
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I didn't speak in my own voice, and not that of my parents, until sometime in my late teens.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@David Wilcox That's still a very different thing from parrotting things you don't understand.

When I tried my hand at story writing, at 13, I was definitely "writing in the voice of" models like Karl May, JRRT, George McDonald, but I still understood where I wanted my stories to be going.

13 dwarves meet another small creature in order to get revenge - I took that part, but I still wanted the backstory to involve no dragon or hoard and more like the Oresty of Aischylos, and the mythological back story to that to involve something like Fomorians ... I was definitely not "speaking in my own voice" (and allowing people my age back then to express themselves actually helps getting there quicker), but I was as definitely not just parrotting words and mannerisms I didn't understand.

Obviously "deeply understand" is another question - do we deeply understand what we do now? Shallow understanding actually is quite OK at times.

David Wilcox
@Hans-Georg Lundahl We are not going to agree, which is OK. I grew up on a religous household, and we attended conservative churches, in the days before the internet. Being exposed to alternate points of view didn't happen to me until college. Children raised in cults and very regulated environments have it much the same. (My parents were not crazy, but assume of the churches were.) I even attended a Baptist college (again without having internet access). It was liberal, for a religous school, but didn't challenge me much, except for widening my views on racial issues. Only in at a Southern Baptist seminary did I finally have my own internet access. I went four years and graduated. Along the way I radically changed my views, as my beliefs were thrown against much more conservative beliefs. Even in my last year, I was parroting things I didn't believe, because I had invested my time and money. My parents were so proud and I didn't want to disappoint my family.

I realized I could no longer be a Southern Baptist, much less a minister. I transitioned from a somewhat conservative Christian at age 30, when I graduated, to the liberal Christian I now. (ELCA Lutheran with close friends and family in the LGBTQ community and proud father of two adults in that community)

The point is everyone grows at different rates. I a dyslexic, autistic, was raised in an analog society, and was a part of conservative churches, my very Christian parents. (I love them. They were Bernie backers and have also shifted a lot.) We all develop differently. Not everyone is you or had your experience. It is a valid experience, but it isn't everyones' experience.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@David Wilcox "but didn't challenge me much, except for widening my views on racial issues."

I have heard someone claim YEC has an issue with racism. Doesn't correspond to the historic YEC of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, also doesn't correspond to the positions of AiG or CMI - do you mean your conservative church had been promoting racism, like segregation or sth?

"Even in my last year, I was parroting things I didn't believe, because I had invested my time and money."

That's a very different thing from parrotting without understanding ...

"Not everyone is you or had your experience."

That is a very valid reason to realise not everyone is Helen and not everyone can analyse "Helen's" experience. Which in turn is a cue to understand her parents actually know her better than any of us do.

David Wilcox
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I was not raised thinking we were racist, and my parents weren't, but in moderately conservative churches, like those I grew up in, there was a lot of talk of 'pulling yourself up by your bootstraps'. There is a range between calling people the 'n word' and threatening to beat them if they talked to your daughter' and having black friends and church members, but really feeling uncomfortable around BLM talk. Racism, like most things, is a spectrum. Some is internalized and unconscious and some is active and driving.

I am going to stop discussing this. It isn't going to change my mind or yours. I am sure you, as I do, am trying to be the best human you can. There is ultimate truth out there I suppose, but we are just finite minded primates with hundreds of thousands of years of existence, in various forms. The first written recorded history is from 7-7.5 thousand years ago. 700,000 years is about 250 generations. I admit that most of my religous, social and political assumptions might be almost entirely wrong. If so, at least I can say I take care of my extended family, do not ignore bigotry as I perceive it, try to support efforts to help the less fortunate (in whatever form that help might take), do not do hard drugs, do not drink and drive, do my recycling, do not cheat on my monogamous marriage commitment, or tell spoilers for shows. I am sure you, and most folk, try to do the same, or at least stick to some similar moral code with variations caused by their own POV on how the world works. I a glad you have your view of how things are, and are willing to, in good consciousness stand up for that. Thank you for being a decent member of the human race! To many humans never consider their place in the world, and merely react, instead of reflecting. Thank you for being reflective, instead of merely reactive.


Keith Levkoff
It occurs to me that an 11 year old could actually be "a true believer"...
I do agree with you that an 11 year old cannot carry out the sort of critical thinking necessary to have a "legitimate opinion" on something like religion...
Therefore I do agree that raising a child to be indoctrinated into a cult (religion) is "abuse" - in the sense that it makes them less able to live a normal life.
So, to me, in this case, the BIGGER problem is allowing parents to indoctrinate their children into religion and other cults...

HOWEVER I disagree with one thing... which is that the child is "definitely being exploited"...
I think it's quite possible that she MIGHT actually be a "true believer"...
Therefore we may reasonably suggest that "she's been BRAINWASHED"...
However, if so, she may be quite happy to "do something that she believes will please God and her parents"...
(And, in that context, it doesn't matter that she may not actually understand all of exactly what that means.)

So, to put it simply, I don't see this as any different as parents who enroll their children in child beauty pageants...
Or, for that matter, parents who push their kids to participate in childhood ballet, or childhood sports.
In all of those situations, some kids probably actually enjoy it, and a few go into it as a career, while many are pushed into it by parents for various reasons.
(And I'm pretty sure that there are no laws that "protect" children from being entered into child beauty pageants because "they're work" either.)
I personally find the religion aspect of this distasteful - but only because I think religious belief is a useless and potentially dangerous delusion.
Other that that, to me, the whole "child Youtube star" thing simply seems like a modern version of something that's been around for a long time.

Beauty pageants are a halfway decent comparison. Dance and sport far less so. Beauty pageants and YouTube channels are all about the interaction/metrics and where a YouTube channel is concerned maybe money. That's where the exploitation factor comes in. Yes with performing arts, athletics, or sport a child could be pushed too far for the parents sake as well, but in general they're socialising with other kids, keeping fit, learning skills and expanding their minds.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Why would "true believer" suggest brainwashing to you?

Keith Levkoff
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I do apologize if I was confusing there. I was using the term in its colloquial meaning "of someone who who has been indoctrinated into a cult or has an irrational belief NOT based on fact". To quote PART of a definition I got from Google: "A strict follower of a doctrine. One who believes dogmatically in something regardless of evidence or even conclusive proof that the thing is false or was staged". (In colloquial terms: "the purpose of brainwashing is to turn someone into 'a true believer' ".)

In the context of this video I was suggesting that it's possible that, rather than "being used to make money" the girl may actually believe in what she's saying, or at least believe that what she's saying is true and so may in fact be enthusiastically participating in the videos rather than being tricked or forced into them.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Keith Levkoff I agree on your second conclusion. She was neither tricked nor forced.

I was actually not aware of the colloquial meaning of "true believer" ... to me it had previously suggested a division between hypocritical and true believers, when it comes to professing any doctrine.

The google search I did gave a second meaning, which was the one I had had in mind:

2 Used other than figuratively or idiomatically: see true,‎ believer.: A strict follower of a doctrine.

However, the first meaning given was:

1 One who believes dogmatically in something regardless of evidence or even conclusive proof that the thing is false or was staged; one who has true-believer syndrome.

Now, I go to the latter:

"True-believer syndrome is an informal or rhetorical term used by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene coined the term in that book. He used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.[1][2] Keene considered it to be a cognitive disorder,[3][4] and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many psychic mediums.[2]"

I am sorry that the concept even exists. 1976 was a bad year, my grandfather died and M. Lamar Keene wrote a bad book.

As long as partisanships can be classed as any kind of "disorder" including "cognitive," this gives partisans of opposing sides an opportunity to weaponise either psychiatry as institution or at a minimum psychiatry related but informal "concerns" about someone as a way to combat his partisanship.

And it is very sad that in that sense you have been - colloquially speaking - brainwashed into believing irrationally that true-believer syndrome exists.


Liam ODonovan
So horrible this happens in the 21st century an 11 year old does not deserve any hate she is the innocent cog in a dangerous cult you are awesome interesting and important video

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"an 11 year old does not deserve any hate"

Fine, two questions:

1) Do you know she did get any hate directly, or could her "answers to comments" video have been involving a mention of Evolutionists behaving bad because her mother told her or because she considered something else than direct hate bad behaviour? I haven't seen it, so if you have, tell me.
2) Supposing for arguments sake that she did get hate: is that on her parents and Kent Hovind? Or is that on those hating?

"she is the innocent cog in a dangerous cult"

Where do you get "dangerous cult" from?

Liam ODonovan
@Hans-Georg Lundahl totally agree unfortunately she will get the hate while the older people who are the ones responsible for indocterianing the 11 year into the cult will be in the background safely

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Liam ODonovan You totally misunderstood my questions, if you say you agree with me.

You have however answered, and I find your outlook gruesome for such answers.

When it comes to "indoctrinating in a cult" you seem to be fairly much a victim of one that has had public schools at its disposal, in more than one country.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl And what cult would that be?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Oranges Secularism, specifically aggressive such.


S Moran
My son (9) makes stop motion videos with his toys, mostly lego, and is really quite good at it, he asked me a few months ago if i could make him a youtube channel so that he could share his videos, and as harsh as it was i had to say it was an absolute No. I explained to him why I didn’t think it would be a good idea, the dangers of the internet, but he’s 9 and was still horribly disappointed. Even if the children in these videos are happy to be involved (which often i doubt they are) it still doesn’t mean it’s right.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
OK, one thing I have heard about is unsavoury comments.

If you open a channel, you can obviously disable comments under his videos. Not that I think there would be unsavoury ones. But just in case, if you are worried.

Another thing is it is dangerous to be contacted by strangers, and there are two ways to contact someone who has a youtube account with videos : 1) comments (see above), 2) mail adress in the "about" section, and it is not obligatory to share the email adress.

Another possibility is, you have a youtube channel yourself (the one you comment on), and you could upload videos by your son under the header "stopmotion by my son" ...


SongByrd ASMR is largely hated because of this. She admitted to neglecting her son and prioritizing her YouTube "career" over him. She said that she loved when he came over (he doesn't live with her because she wasn't taking care of him) because she could use him in her mukbangs and that those "got the most views." He's no longer in her videos because the grandparents finally put a stop to it after she called him a mistake. These YouTubers need to be stopped.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
She seems a totally different type of case.

The parents of "Helen" were not becoming youtube stars themselves, but allowed her to be one.


R0cket M00se
When you said you "could have so easily been Helen" it really struck a chord.

I was largely raised in a time before social media but with my father's beliefs about the government and how it fit into his religious beliefs and the conspiracies he would spin, there's no way I'd have been online like Helen.

However, it's incredibly sad to see someone else who was raised in the same situation I was, and how they just start to mold into a belief system because there's most likely positive reinforcement that comes from doing so either socially or with some tangible reward. People like you and I made it out of those oppressive fundamentalist systems, and thankfully more and more each day, but there are so many more that just never do and end up being indoctrinated.

I often worry about where I'd be if I didn't have teachers who really opened up my point of view and helped remove the bubble I'd been raised in. I doubt I'd still be who I am now, but who knows.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
As far as I know Emma Thorne's backstory, she legitimately was into conspiracies, but not a Fundamentalist.

"People like you and I made it out of those oppressive fundamentalist systems"

I am not quite sure why you consider fundamentalism oppressive and still less why you consider it equal to conspiracy thinking.

Emma Thorne (who has not engaged my comments in her own name) seems to have equated Fundamentalism with Conspiracies for no good reason at all, as she had no real experience with Fundamentalism.

"but there are so many more that just never do and end up being indoctrinated."

Do I hear some kind of missionary regret?

"if I didn't have teachers who really opened up my point of view and helped remove the bubble I'd been raised in."

I had more than one teacher who believed they tried that with me. It was they who ended up being oppressive to me.


Brian Garrow
My parents were of a much different mindset than most people of their generation. They were adamant that children were meant to learn, grow, explore and find their happiness in this world. Our home was the ’safe’ home in our very lower working class neighborhood. As a child I didn’t put two and two together- they kept a safe a kid friendly home for their own kids and any other kids that wanted to play in a safe environment. Let kids be kids was one of my mother’s favorite sayings. Hovind and his ilk are no better than the parents of yesteryear that sent their kids out to sweep chimneys.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Are you mad?

Doing a video and sweeping a chimney are very different things.


A wonderful and contemporary topic to address Emma. I'm a 70 year old man and my youngest grandchildren are 19 years old twin girls so it's a topic I haven't given one moment's thought. However, I am a voracious reader so I have extensive knowledge of the Georgian and Victorian periods of British history with all the accounts of child exploitation and sweatshops from Dickens and others.

I'm so glad you took the time to address this issue because undoubtedly it's going to be an ongoing problem as social media sites become more prevalent. I'm also glad you tied it in to Kent Hovind and his particular brand of crazy, at least in that respect I have some concrete examples to study and further educate myself with. Thanks for a terrific video and all your efforts to expose some of the lunacy encountered on the increasing number of social media websites. Cheers from Canada!

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You are fairly annoying with your comparison of youtubes to the Shoepolish factory Dickens was sent to.

And possibly even more with your hatred of Kent Hovind.


Hans-Georg Lundahl
Do you think this black boy is being exploited by a Neill de Grass Tyson fan?

If not, do you have a reason why this is not double standards considering your view on "Helen" whose parents are Kent Hovind fans?

No comments: