Sunday, February 26, 2023

The Crusader Pub took on (un-)Friendly Atheist Mehta

How NOT to make a pro-choice argument
The Crusader Pub, 26 June 2022

4:10 "that's what a white Christian nationalist looks like" If I hadn't been sitting in a cyber, I would not just have laughed, out, but also done it loud ...

5:52 Not just that.*

He's into the very bad equation of Christian pro-life policies with Hitler, where Hitler actually did enforce certain abortions (against down's dyndrome and against mixed race, the latter being "outside the bubble" of the five white races in the German nation (Nordic, Westic, Alpine, Dinaric and East Baltic).

He's missing that Christian pro-lifers want to protect the babies of Muslims and Jews and Satanists as well.

6:53 "Church state separation as we know it"

Was it Jefferson or Franklin they quote?

The thing is, it was not the entirety of the Founding Fathers.

A certain kind of Supreme Court Judges who involves lots of Freemasons in the 40's and 50's (for real) introduced the doctrine that the Founding Fathers had wanted to make a Separation of Church and State ... an idea they got from Clemenceau in France, 1905. Who was not a founding father, not an American, and not along in 1776.

8:22 Tiberius / Diocletian - gotcha! But I thought you were going to say someone else ...

10:09 For my part, I certainly do care about women having less incitation to abortion (or suicide) and I said it more than once, by lowering back down the legal ages for marrying.

12:14 While His Holiness actually opened up the road for married men to be priests even in the Latin rite, some years before he died last year, Hemant is making a kind of case for celibate clergy.

But what exactly would a pregnant preacher's daughter have done back 120 years ago? Arguably married. Why don't they now, if Hemant is right?

Well, there is such a thing as too high age limits for marriage.

You mentioned the capacity to not have sex in the first place. OK, but while it is not abolished overall, it is overall lowered, in a society where a girl of 14:
  • can't have a husband
  • can't leave school with usually coeducation
  • can't fast for Lent (not sure how school lunches function in US, I think of Sweden)
  • can't avoid very upbeat music (at least not without forsaking social media and social life in general).

15:00 I am definitely trying to fight one of the root causes - not being able to marry when you are physically, shall we put it like that, able to marry.

AKA banning people under 18 or 21 from marrying.

15:14 Disagreed.

Self control is in certain situations lowered.

One of the reasons given to ban teen marriages is, teens have less self control in sex and agressivity and moods. Hence "too immature" (certain people concluded).

St. Paul is on the contrary not stating that marriage is a privilege for tose with most self control. Pretty much on the contrary, if you look up 1 Cor 7.

For those wishing someone wanting to marry should practise more self control instead, that sounds not a little like I Tim 4:3.

19:25 "no actual responsibility"

He is using "responsibility" as a morally valorising word. If a club votes a chairman was "responsible for degrading the locale to the sum of 100 USD" that's not lauding him. If a court rules the car driver was "responsible" for the accident, that's also not lauding him.

I am for taking the responsibilities one actually has (usually), but I am not for looking for responsibilities just for the sake of having them, without reflecting on what one actually has to gain from them.

Now, sure. A legislator or a judge punishing the previous abortion are not taking responsibility for raising the child not aborted, because a young woman was duly deterred. True. But it is also true that is usually the responsibility of the young woman and of the man who got her pregnant. As mentioned, certain age limits should be lowered, not just marrying, but also leaving school, getting a job ...

But back to the misuse of the word "responsibility" - I think there is a modern heresy in moral philosophising, which I dub "responsabilism" - it doesn't primarily mean taking the responsibilities one has. Rather, it means:

  • chasing responsibilities one hasn't and then taking them because it develops one's character
  • being upset by people who are not equally chasing responsibilities for no advantage
  • forcing them to chase responsibilities or otherwise take responsibility for others in ways taking away their own (when they get or bargain for sth to be responsible for).

Obvious application to abortion. Teen of 14, bad grades, parents not very willing to take care of a grandbaby. Prediction by responsabilists : the baby will have a bad life. Solution proposed : "take responsibility to spare the baby the bad life" = a k a murder. Obviously, there are similar types of motivations behind them being very unwilling to let girls of 14 marry. Teen of 14, bad grades, not very likely to have a nice life herself unless she improves the grades, not likely to study much if pregnant and later mother. There are some pro-lifers who are still half and half into "responsabilism" by saying "adoption, the responsible option" - what they are not saying is "staying the mother one is, is a valid option, compared to which others are running away from a responsability one truly has" ...

21:51 "Just** get out of the Church's way, and let it do its thing!"

Hear hear ...

You are aware that part of the Church's thing has been marrying young couples or couples where the mother is young, and not punishing a perpetrator who seduced a virgin if he agrees to marry her?

Because, this is an issue, where some present legislations of the US are unfortunately against the Church doing its thing. Like too high age limits for marriage and consent and not allowing marriage settlements to replace punishment in case of "statutory rape" - right?

23:28 Hemant spoke of "sensible religious people" .... I know what I would be surrounded by if I returned to Sweden, and I know what I was surrounded by in the Youth Club of the Lutheran back then State Church of Sweden, before I converted.

I have another name for that type than "sensible" ...

* The Crusader Pub had made a good point, go and listen to the video! I just wanted to add another one.
** In response to Hemant Mehta's question on how to care for those born under the worst possible circumstances.

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