Wednesday, November 9, 2022

On Abortion

My reaction to Lila Rose’s appearance on Dr. Phil
The Counsel of Trent, 21 Sept. 2022

Hans-Georg Lundahl
8:13 Ooops, presuming Heliocentrism ... Joshua 10:12?

Bullet Anarchy
The point is that the new discoveries do not replace the old methods because they are not simply a better way of detecting the same thing.

Viewing fertilisation in 1870 doesn't mean now we know that quickening happens at conception, quickening still happens at the end of the second trimester.

It's not the same human being if you don't categorise it as a human being yet. Every ovum is unique but you don't have any problem with considering that not to be developed enough to matter yet the same code is unique to the person it becomes.

Is a zygote the same human being because what if the zygote splits then you have two different human beings when they complete gestation or whenever you want to consider them to be an individual human being. If it is still connected to a human being in its reproductive organs then I think a case can be made that it is not an individual human being.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Bullet Anarchy I think you are missing that a split involves a second zygote forming within the same womb and having the same two parents.

It is not as if the first one absolutely needed to have formed in the time of the coitus, it could have been some minutes, sometimes even hours. After the man "gets out" ...

While one of the persons was the first of them, we do not necessarily know which one.

So, the argument is moot.

One could also argue that the quickening was a kind of optic illusion about what looks human and what doesn't.

@Bullet Anarchy I missed one part.

"Every ovum is unique but you don't have any problem with considering that not to be developed enough to matter yet the same code is unique to the person it becomes."

You are missing that an ovum that's not fertilised is not just "not developed enough" it is on the one hand not even starting to develop, unlike from fertilisation on, and on the other hand far less unique than the final man, because the equal uniqueness of the sperm needs to be addeed before you have a human person.

Ovum = 1/2^23 = 1/8 388 608
Sperm = 1/8 388 608
Any person in relation to parents = 1/2^46 = 1/8 388 608^2 = 1/70 368 744 177 664

Just in relation to parents, obviously. Even more so globally, since the parents are not exhausting all the alleles that there are for each gene.

Bullet Anarchy
@Hans-Georg Lundahl A second zygote doesn't form in the womb unless it is non identical twins. Identical twins a single zygote divides into two.

Therefore the original zygote does not become an individual human being it becomes more than one.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Bullet Anarchy "Identical twins a single zygote divides into two."

And before God, one of the two counts as the original one.

In non-identical twins, you have two zygotes forming in parallel, not from a previous one.

Bullet Anarchy
@Hans-Georg Lundahl Your numbers make no sense.

An ovum has already developed before fertilisation through a process called genetic recombination, it adjusts itself in a unique way that is why it is unique and that is why siblings from the same parents do not have identical children unless those children formed from the same ovum.

Do you understand ? Identical twins = 2 people 1 ovum 1 zygote at conception later becomes two zygotes in a different process that is not called conception.

Therefore individual human life at conception is demonstrably false.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Bullet Anarchy You are very probably confusing "an ovum" with a "fertilised ovum".

My numbers are giving the mathematical reality of genetic recombination (barring crossovers, which further add to it).

This recombination has in an unfertilised ovum or in a sperm (it is equal in both) not yet started developing. It is a fact from when the sperm or the ovum formed.

The two zygotes are unequal to the previous one, one of them is the previous and one isn't. One keeps the soul God created, one gets a new one. Both are still formed within the same womb, from same human parents.

Bullet Anarchy
@Hans-Georg Lundahl It doesn't matter because the definition of an organism is an individual member of the species, therefore a zygote is not yet a human being

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Bullet Anarchy The zygote is an individual member of the species.

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