Wednesday, November 9, 2022

Neither Todd nor David Baker get it ... "descendit ad inferos"

Where did Jesus go when he died?
David Baker, 1 Nov. 2022

8:55 The people were saved before they went to Hell.

They were Satan's captives due to Adam's sin, only insofar as they were down, and not up with the angels, praising God.

Paradise at this time is this part of Hades, also known as Abraham's bosom.

Since Christ freed them, they are instead in Heavenly Jerusalem.

10:26 Todd's forgetting that between the Resurrection day with this adress to St. Mary Magdalene and next week, He was no longer not to be touched, since He told St. Thomas Didymus to touch Him. Presumably He had gone up to Heaven in the meantimen, for instance transporting the souls from Limbus Patrum.

10:58 Yes, that and even "He bore the wrath for me" is fairly clear heresy.

On the day when He was baptised, Mark 1:11, there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

This did not change on Calvary.

12:06 Hear, hear, Todd is actually orthodox for once in a while ...

13:15 Ah, David Baker, as you bring in the lamb, he had to be eaten. He, only male lambs could apply for the honour.

Does this suggest to you that Holy Mass might be continuing the slaughter on Calvary?

To me it's one more ample proof of it. Thank you for the fact of mentioning it.

By the way, John 19:36 is not referring specifically to a Messianic prophecy normally so called, it identifies Christ with the Easter Lamb.

For these things were done, that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him.
John 19:36
In one house shall it be eaten, neither shall you carry forth of the flesh thereof out of the house, neither shall you break a bone thereof.
Exodus 12:46

Of him = thereof, Hebrew language using the masculine about the lamb.

16:41 - Here is the dichotomic version of this verse's understanding:

Ver. 23. Spirit, and soul. The former marks the understanding, the latter the will: hence these two terms give the two principal faculties of the soul. V.

Haydock comment, not sure who V was. Not Father Haydock, not Bishops Witham and Challoner ...

17:21 Jesus, Mary, possibly St. John the Gospeller, possibly some saints raised on Good Friday, though others say they died again.

Henoch and Elijah are however lower down, in mortal bodies. They will get their bodies glorified when they rise after lying dead three days in Jerusalem. And a half, sorry.

17:44 No, verse 46 does not say He went to Heaven, since the Father's hands are not limited to Heaven.

Here is the Challoner to v. 43:

[43] "In paradise": That is, in the happy state of rest, joy, and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased, by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief, with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment; and to introduce him immediately after death into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo, that is, the place of their confinement, was now made a paradise by our Lord's going thither.

19:30 In Ps. 15:9-10, we see this dichotomy.

[9] Therefore my heart hath been glad, and my tongue hath rejoiced: moreover my flesh also shall rest in hope. [10] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt thou give thy holy one to see corruption.

1 Heart, 2 flesh. 1 Soul not staying in hell, 2 [body] not facing corruption.

21:08 You cannot presume Jonah was alive all the time in the whale's belly.

He was resurrected. Therefore, his suffering in the whale would have been shorter than Our Lord's on the Cross.

21:46 When Abraham and Lazarus were discussing with the Rich Man across the chasm, the Limbus Patrum was not yet paradisal. It became so, as the gates of Hell were broken, when Our Lord's soul came down.

22:05 When it comes to Sts. Paul and John, their writings are from after the Limbus Patrum was transferred to Heaven, after Our Lord opened the pearly gates for them and for those coming after them.

22:14 "there is no Scripture for that at all"

Obviously not, if you are not allowed to believe Tradition or lay two and two together from several passages.

There is also no Scripture for most of the OT references to Jesus, but we know all books referred to Him - Luke 24:44. Only very few of these references are in fact given in Gospels or Epistles. They are much thinner than the NT, but the OT (and therefore all its references to Jesus) is more is much thicker than the NT. So, we have these references either from tradition or from putting two and two together, or both. Here also the OT references to Mary (with Genesis 3:15 definitely making Her a complete enemy of the serpent, since "enmities" = complete enmity).

You seem to have one go to text in trichotomy, but if you allege Hebrews 4:12 as a second one, here is the Haydock comment:

Ver. 12. For the word of God is living, &c. Some understand by the word of God, the eternal word, or Son of God: (to whom may apply all in the 12th and 13th verses) but others rather expound it of the words, promises, and menaces of God, either foretold by the prophets, or preached by the apostles. Wi. [Witham, see below] — All this language is metaphorical, but perfectly well understood by the Jews. In their sacrifices, the Levites made use of a two-edged knife to separate from the victim what was for God, what was for the priests, and what was for the people. Thus in sacrificing sinners to the justice of God, Jesus Christ, like a two-edged knife, will separate what is for God, and what is for man; i.e. whatever is good or evil in the whole of man's conduct.

After these two verses, a computer search on "Spirit, and soul" transits to passages where it is arguably they could mean the same thing, parallelism is used. Here these are:

And now, O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, the soul in anguish, and the troubled spirit crieth to thee:
[Baruch 3:1]

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the spirit of all flesh of man.
[Job 12:10]

By the way, this disproves one need go to Heaven to be in the hands of the Father. The souls and spirits of the damned are also that of living things and of flesh of man.

A man indeed killeth through malice, and when the spirit is gone forth, it shall not return, neither shall he call back the soul that is received:
[Wisdom 16:14]

Forasmuch as he knew not his maker and him that inspired into him the soul that worketh, and that breathed into him a living spirit.
[Wisdom 15:11]

My soul hath desired thee in the night: yea, and with my spirit within me in the morning early I will watch to thee. When thou shalt do thy judgments on the earth, the inhabitants of the world shall learn justice.
[Isaias (Isaiah) 26:9]

23:14 "how many souls were there" - here these souls are called "spirits" ... in the Bible.

24:02 You are presuming all who rejected the warnings of Noah were damned, basically. Here is the Catholic Haydock comment on I Peter 3:19

Ver. 19. In which (to wit, soul or spirit) also he came, and preached to those spirits who were in prison. The true and common interpretation of this place seems to be, that the soul of Christ, after the separation from the body and before the resurrection, descended to a place in the interior parts of the earth, called hell in that which we call the apostles' creed, (sometimes called Abraham's bosom, sometimes Limbus Patrum, a place where were detained all the souls of the patriarchs, prophets, and just men, as it were in prison) and preached to these spirits in this prison; i.e. brought them this happy news, that he who was their Redeemer was now come to be their deliverer, and that at his glorious ascension they should enter with him into heaven, where none could enter before our Redeemer, who opened as it were heaven's gates. Among these were many who had been formerly at first incredulous in the time of Noe, who would not take warning from his preparing and building the ark, but it may be reasonably supposed that many of them repented of their sins when they saw the danger approaching, and before they perished by the waters of the deluge, so that they died at least not guilty of eternal damnation; because, though they were sinners, yet they worshipped the true God, for we do not find any proofs of idolatry before the deluge. These then, and all the souls of the just, Christ descended to free from their captivity, from their prison, and to lead them at his ascension triumphant with him into heaven. The Church of England cannot quarrel with this exposition, which seems altogether conformable to the third of their thirty-nine articles, which at present runs thus: "As Christ died for us, and was buried, so also it is to be believed that he went down into hell." It is thus expressed in the articles under queen Elizabeth, an. 1562; and in the articles put out ten years before, an. 1552, in the fourth year of king Edward the sixth, the words were: "that the body of Christ lay in the grave until his resurrection, but the spirit which he gave up was with the spirits which were detained in prison, or in hell, and preached to them, as the place in S. Peter testifieth." Dr. Pearson on the fifth article of the creed, writes thus: "There is nothing which the Fathers agree in more, than as to a local and real descent of the soul of Christ into the infernal parts, unto the habitation of the souls departed. . . . This was the general opinion of the Church, as may appear by the testimonies of those ancient writers, who lived successively and wrote in several ages, and delivered this exposition in such express terms as are not capable of any other interpretation." Thus Dr. Pearson. He cites the Fathers. See the edition, an. 1683, p. 237. Wi. = Bishop George Witham

Prison. See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. Ch. = Bishop William Challoner

S. Austin, in his 99th epistle, confesses that this text is replete with difficulties. This he declares is clear, beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ descended in soul after his death into the regions below, and concludes with these words: Quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos Christum? In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation. (the last part Haydock himself).

24:46 Why would the angels not have access to lower regions to do so?

Btw, the part in the middle of the earth where this takes place actually does have the bosom of Abraham, not just "beside" but above the hell from which the rich man was talking.

25:31 It does not say the great gulf is as great as 6300 km from Hell to surface of Earth and then one light day more to the stars and then some more to Abraham.

Ver. 22. Abraham's bosom.[3] The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death. Ch.

It was an ancient tradition of the Jews, that the souls of the just were conducted by angels into paradise. The bosom of Abraham (the common Father of all the faithful) was the place where the souls of the saints, and departed patriarchs, waited the arrival of their Deliverer. It was thither the Jesus went after his death; as it is said in the Creed, "he descended into hell," to deliver those who were detained there, and who might at Christ's ascension enter into heaven. Calmet. = Dom Augustin Calmet, Benedictine

See 1 Pet. iii. 19. — "Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham." Matt. viii. 11. (presumably Haydock here)

Ver. 25. It appears from Philo, (de Execrat. p. 9, 37 b.) that the Jews not only acknowledged the existence of souls, and their state of happiness or misery after this life, but also that the souls of the saints and patriarchs interceded with God for their descendants, and obtained from them the succour they stood in need of. Calmet.

Ver. 26. Between us and you is fixed a great chaos, or gulf; i.e. God's justice has decreed, that the bad should forever be separated from the good. We may here take notice that the Latin and Greek word, (v. 22) translated hell, even in the Prot. translation, cannot signify only the grave. Wi.

25:40 "that's from Hell to Heaven"

If that were the case, how would the rich man
1) even have seen Abraham and Lazarus?
2) and have imagined that Lazarus could bring him water?

25 902 068 371 km 200 m (stars one light day up, and Abraham above that) + 6300 km (hell that far down) = 25 902 074 671 kilometers 200 meters and more is the distance from Heaven to Hell.

26:20 Ver. 8. He led captivity captive.[1] S. Jerom and others expound these words of Christ's delivering the pious souls that had died before his ascension, and which were detained in a place of rest which is called Limbus Patrum. (Haydock?)

— He gave gifts to men. Having delivered men from the captivity of sin, he bestowed upon them his gifts and graces. Wi.

— Wherefore he, David, in Ps. lxvii. makes use of these words, in order to shew that these gifts were gratuitous, and that no person had a right to complain that another had received more: after this the apostle proceeds to shew that Christ even descended to the lower parts of the earth, in order to teach us humility; whence he concludes that we ought to be humble and live in union with our brethren, which is the chief subject of the present chapter. Tirinus. = Jacobus Tirinus (1580–1636) was a Belgian Jesuit Biblical scholar.

His major work is the Commentarius in Sacram Scripturam, a Bible commentary in two volumes from 1645.

Ver. 9. Into the lower parts of the earth. This cannot signify into the grave only, especially since in that which we look upon as the apostles' creed, we first profess to believe that he was buried, and afterwards that he descended into hell. Wi.

27:06 Jesus atoned not just for each man, individually, but also for all men, collectively. This is probably the part where Vicarious Atonement fits best.

So, each of those down in Limbus Patrum was saved, and could theoretically individually have gone to Heaven if it had been open to men, and they couldn't yet in practise, because it was collectively closed to mankind.

Henoch and Elijah are probably lower down and not concerned with this, they haven't died yet.

27:25 As said, they aren't in there. They are probably below the fix stars, on some planet, which angels make inhabitable to their mortal bodies, and not above the fix stars with the blessed, as they will be after their martyrdom.

Here is Haydock comment on Genesis 5:24

Ver. 24. Walked with God. Sept. "was pleasing to God," by continual recollection and watchfulness over himself. Thus he became perfect.

--- Was seen no more; or, as S. Paul reads, after the Sept. he was not found. Heb. xi. 5.

--- God took him alive to some place unknown, which is commonly supposed to be Paradise, conformably to Ecclus. xliv. 16. though in Greek we do not read Paradise. Henoch pleased God, and was translated [into Paradise,] that he may give repentance to the nations. To him, that of Wisdom iv. 10. may be applied: He...was beloved, and living among sinners, he was translated. He will come again, when the charity of many of his children, (for we all spring from him) shall have grown cold; and shall at last suffer death for opposing Antichrist. Apoc. xi. H. = Haydock (presumably for all three passages)

--- "Though it be not an article of faith, whether Henoch be now in that Paradise, from which Adam and Eve were driven, or in some other delightful place; yet the holy Scriptures affirm, that God translated him alive, that he might not experience death," S. Chrys. hom. 21. with whom the other fathers agree, cited in the Douay Bible; so that it is a matter of surprise, how any Protestant can call it in question. He is the other witness, who will come with Elias, before the great day of the Lord, to perform the same office to the nations, as the latter will to the Jews. Malac. iv. God preserves these two alive, perhaps to give us a striking proof how he could have treated Adam and his posterity, if they had not sinned; and also to confirm our hopes of immortality, when we shall have paid the debt of nature. W. = W = ? = Wi = Witham?

No, I think it is rather
Thomas Worthington, D.D. (1549 at Blainscough Hall, near Wigan, Lancashire – 1627 at Biddulph Hall, Staffordshire) - Annotations to the Old Testament (Douai, 1609–10),
Thomas Worthington (1671−1754), was a Dominican friar and writer. - ‘Prolegomena ad Sacram Scripturam et Historia Sacra Scholastica Mundi sub lege Naturæ,’ Louvain, 1702, 4to.

I stop the video here, and publish the comments so far made, might update with the rest. Later.

29:45 Speaking of your interpretation of "lead capticity captive" namely the "spiritual gifts" (without which one would be in captivity), where did these gifts go in 500 AD?

Supposing you accept Peter and Paul, or at least Paul, was martyred in Rome, they were in Rome during the time of Nero. What about the year when burial in catacombs ends?

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