Preterist View of the Olivet Discourse by "Heretic Chick" ...

Glenn Beck and CS Lewis vs Jesus
Heretic Chick Chat | 24 Sept. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfySu0VD1po

15:55 There is an earlier contendant for abomination:

"Caligula orders that a statue of himself be placed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The governor of Syria, Publius Petronius, who is responsible for having an erecting the statue, faces mass demonstrations by Jews of the region and manages to delay construction of the statue until the death of Caligula in AD 41."

38:08 He also said "you are not of the world, but in the world" or some Apostle said it on His behalf.

He did found a visible kingdom which is called the Catholic Church, but He also did found very specially a visible kingdom which is becoming more visible right now, of reunited Judah and Ephraim.

They are called Palestinians.

By the way, the idea that the New Covenant is the New Heavens and Earth vindicates my reformed view of a Patristic spiritual reading of the Creation Days.

The First Coming was on "Day Six" ... Jesus came within the sixth millennium or sixth Adamic lifespan from Creation.
But the Second Coming would rather be on "Day Eight" ... the New Creation took three Creation Days: Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Lord's Day of Resurrection.

We are currently in the eighth millennium or the eighth Adamic lifespan counting from Creation.

38:55 That we are not living in the end times does not follow.

You have argued for Preterism of the Olivet Discourse, that's one thing. But you have not argued for Preterist fulfilment of the Apocalypse.

Now, Henoch and Elijah have not come. But the stage is already nearly set for their killing.

Apocalypse 11 has a verse stating their dead bodies lie in the streets of:

• the Great City
• where their Lord also was Crucified (Golgotha was outside 1st C. Jerusalem, but is inside contemporary Jerusalem)
• which is spiritually Sodom (there are Pride Parades in Jerusalem)
• and Egypt (look at how they treat Palestinians).

Ophiuchus

@ophiuchus9071

Now, Henoch and Elijah have not come. But the stage is already nearly set for their killing.

yes Elijah has come Jesus confirmed that the coming 'Elijah' was John the Baptist.

Why do you think that the scripture says Elijah will come twice?

And Revelation 11 is speaking of the two lampstands that did not fall away, The two witnesses are those two lampstands who stood strong in faith before the Lord.

First what does 'stand' mean..

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

second who are the two lampstands that stood in faith

go back and read, there were seven lampstands which symbolized the seven churches.

DO NOT CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE LAMPSTANDS TO IMPLY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE MEANING THAT JOHN WAS GIVEN IN REVELATION 1 BY CHRIST HIMSELF.

Rev 1:20
.....and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Five of the lampstands were judged and removed and only two lampstands stood remaining.

who were those lampstands?

The two lampstands or churches that remined faithful were the two churches in Philadelphia and Smyrna.

The 'bodies' of these two lampstands were the persecuted saints who kept the faith. The dead bodies of the Christian martyrs were left in the streets to rot or hung on crosses and left for all to see. The apostate Jews celebrated the deaths of the martyrs as they considered it the death of the heretic religion that Jesus was the leader of.

It is not about two special men who had supernatural powers as you assume.

The 'fire from heaven' that came down from heaven through the authority of the Christian witnesses, was the gospel of Christ.

By the way Revelation 11 is one of my favorite studies

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@ophiuchus9071 It so happens that this is not the reading of the Church.

Church Fathers and Scholastics have identified the two witnesses with Henoch and Elijah.

In fact, it was a spiritual, not a literal fulfilment, when the word of the prophet was considered as fulfilled by Jesus in the person of St. John the Baptist.

@ophiuchus9071 Plus purely physically:

Smyrna and Philadelphia could not be lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

40:07 The physical is perhaps not superior to the spiritual. Or perhaps one exception.

But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female
[Mark 10:6]

That's clearly physical, and that's very obviously superior to some misguided males who think they are spiritually females or vice versa ...

But the spiritual is often conjoined with the physical. OT circumcision, NT water baptism. Marriage is a great mystery in Christ and His Bride, but it is also a carnal union.

When Jesus said His kingdom was not coming with observation, He was not stating it was totally invisible or asocial, He was more like saying it came in an unobtrusive way.

A Point About Authorised Killings of Populations in the Conquest of Canaan—The Authorisation Does Not Apply Today!

The Problem of Violence in The Old Testament? /W Trent Horn
Pints With Aquinas | 31 Jan. 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPyjIMn5-yg

"once again we would 7:26 go back to that God did not say that the 7:28 Israelites could make a judgment for 7:30 themselves about you can take human life 7:33 whenever you feel like in the sense of 7:35 now that it would be even worse I'd say 7:38 to allow genocide in the sense of you 7:40 can end the life of any human being you 7:42 feel as necessary just like you can 7:44 write a writ of divorce in fact God 7:46 specifically commanded Israel to not go 7:49 to war with other nations to leave leave 7:51 to not get into fights with Moab the 7:54 Moabites for instance but here God is 7:57 restricting and exercising his authority 8:00 that He rightly has to take human life"

What about Israelis going to war with the mainly Israelites of Muslim and (indirectly) Christian confessions who are referred to as Palestinians?

Geocentrism Again : Sungenis and Coulombe

An Orthodox Who Believes the Infidel Lesch · Geocentrism Again : Sungenis and Coulombe · No, I Do Not Take My Views from Judaism · No, I Do Not Take My Views from Protestantism

Episode 85: Dr. Sungenis on Geocentrism
Catholics Against Militarism | 23 Oct. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDDsGYwbA8

22:09 Karl Keating ... sigh ...

He started Catholic Answers, his first tract was fine, it was a defense of the Real Presence, but within his first 48 tracts he had probably come to think he was defending Catholicism in attacking, not specifically Protestant tenets, but Fundamentalist Exegesis, and therefore he went after Creationism ... at least back then he was in San Diego, whose bishop is now cracking down on homeschoolers, at least logistically.

25:27 To parody Sungenis. The word "lion" with versions "lion's" and "lions" occurs respectively 86 verses, 9 verses (1 Machabees 3:4 is on both lists), 46 verses.

Is the Bible trying to tell us that lions roar, prowl and devour and in the process kill?

No, the Bible is taking that for granted. But obviously, not just what the Bible is "trying to tell" but also what it is "taking for granted" comes into the total sum of what it tells.

For verses taking Geocentrism for granted, I think Sungenis may have missed Romans 1:18—20.

Geocentrism
Tumblar House | 18 Jan. 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NLypED5n-g

Wouldn't agnosticism favour geocentrism?

I mean, if there is no definite proof for heliocentrism, the senses favour geocentrism.

Now, is Pope Michael II the True Pope? Hope So.

Should I Thank Protestants Who Worry? No. · Now, is Pope Michael II the True Pope? Hope So. · For the Feast of St. Thérèse · Advice on Turning the Other Cheek · Is Writing Above the Station of a Homeless? — No.

Catholics MUST Care About Papal Heresy!
The Catholic Esquire | 20 Sept. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/live/0ov6kdgOYi4

1:32 It is perhaps not too important what happens in Rome, when the true Pope resides in Meycauayan (or at least Luzon province of the Philippines).

The diocese is more important than the locality, confer 9 March 1309 to 16 October 1367, when the Pope was in Avignon, or 1076/77 when (persecuted by the Emperor), Pope Innocent II was in Canossa Castle.

2:54 God has given me the grace to, whenever someone mentions Bergoglio's charades, speak up and say "wait a minute, isn't it the Pope you should be caring about?"

Adding "look to Topeka" (up to Aug. 2nd 2022) and now "look to the Philippines"

4:52 If you find conflict in Vatican II documents (not denying that, see Nostra Aetate and GaSp), how about checking "CCC § 283"?

7:09 ["who the pope is"]

Here is his predecessor, a few months before he died:

Pontifacts Interview with Pope Michael
Pontifacts Podcast | 2 Oct. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ0CYtplMnQ

Seems considering the papacy is anywhere near Bergoglio is not good for your peace of mind (or for souls on a more weighty level).

7:44 Yes, you could ask your priest to submit to the true pope. That's one thing you could do about it.

Should I Thank Protestants Who Worry? No.

Should I Thank Protestants Who Worry? No. · Now, is Pope Michael II the True Pope? Hope So. · For the Feast of St. Thérèse · Advice on Turning the Other Cheek · Is Writing Above the Station of a Homeless? — No.

Should I Thank Protestants Who Worry? No. · Brother.M and Peter Wallis Continued

The Moment She Stopped Believing in Christianity
Melody Freeman | 27 Sept. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ37fp6jT18

People with your idea have prayed for me.

I fast less. I pray lots less. And I'm worse. Physically and my trust in God.

Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.
2 Peter 1:10

If I had kept up, I'd have been less close to diabetes or kidney strain, and happier and also I would have had fewer people just plain "worrying" about me and destroying my social life.

I don't know what she did when she fasted twice a week, but it's not a bad thing. The Pharisee wasn't wrong to fast twice a week, he was just wrong to see his good works while he prayed instead of his failures.

St. Peter didn't mean like "found a company so you can then use some money to fund a charity" he meant plain good works like, prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

Brother.M

@br.m

Sounds like you can't part with your precious rosary. It must be an idol to you. How sad for people to be burdened with rosaries.

Ruby Red Infinite

@rubyredinfinite9949

I am confused by your comment. Do you want to pray the rosary, or do you not want to pray the rosary? I am asking out of curiosity, not judgement.

Either way, I think it's not supposed to be about a specific prayer/set of words to pray, it's about talking and praying to God whom you have a relationship with. It's about allowing the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you in life to forgive, to love, to rest in Christ, to give generously and all the other wonderful good fruits that come from Him. So that you can grow closer to God.

If you start focussing on a specific type of prayer like the rosary, aren't you just as lost as that lady Melody is reacting to?

That is what we call works based faith. You are focussed on what you do/are doing and you think it results in good or bad, instead of focussing on what Christ has already done. Prayer should be about having an honest open and submissive conversation and relationship with God, with Christ. No amount of fasting or saying specific prayers or doing specific routines is going to get you closer to God if you are focussed on doing those things, instead of God himself.

Just something to think about.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@rubyredinfinite9949 "aren't you just as lost as that lady Melody is reacting to?"

I actually thought that Melody was talking about sth like fasting Wednesdays and Fridays and praying the Jesus Prayer or Rosary.

A little later, it turns out the lady was sth like a Pentecostal, and she was writing her prayers down.

That is, she did NOT have a specific prayer, she was intensely trying to have a personal relationship on very personal terms, so to speak keeping a diary of her walk with God.

That's what burdened her. Too much improvisation and creativity on her part.

The Rosary or other set prayers that are long enough (in the Middle Ages "little Hours of Our Lady" were a layman's miniature of the "Hours" prayed by monks and nuns and clergy, and the Rosary was considered a kind of layman's substitute for that), they will naturally put you in a peaceful state, kind of light hypnosis.

My problem with the Rosary pesonally is twofold:

• whom would I be praying it with? I know certain Catholics where I am who have been praying for the wrong things, so I would prefer not to pray with them;
• I am so burdened by a persecution and kind of burned out that I cannot pray Our Father, most of the time, because it contains "as we forgive" ...

IF these two things were repaired, I would want to get back to the Rosary. As it is, on a good day, I am likely to pray three Hail Mary.

@rubyredinfinite9949 "You are focussed on what you do/are doing and you think it results in good or bad, instead of focussing on what Christ has already done."

Plain false.

The sorrowful mysteries (Tuesdays and Fridays) are:

1. the sweating of blood in Gethsemane
2. the scourging at the pillar
3. the crowning with thorns
4. the carrying of the Cross
5. the death on Calvary

Of the ensuing glorious mysteries, you'll recognise the first three:

1. the Resurrection
2. the Ascension
3. Jesus sending His Holy Spirit
4. Assumption of Mary
5. Crowning of Mary in Heaven

And, to be complete, the glorious mysteries are Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, so what do we pray Mondays and Thursdays? Joyful mysteries, which will be familiar to you as well:

1. Annunciation
2. Visit to Elisabeth
3. Birth of God in the flesh
4. Carrying forth in the Temple (both Circumcision and Purification, the former when God receives the blessed name Jesus)
5. the finding in the Temple, when He was at age 12 teaching the best teachers.

If you are not so tired you can hardly pray at all, which is often my case, and so irritated you don't feel like it even if you aren't tired, also often my case, the Rosary makes it on the contrary super easy to concentrate on precisely what Jesus has done. Not on what I want. Not on what I can do. Both of these are side issues. But what Jesus has done and where Mary stands in relation to that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@br.m You are judging and judging wrongly.

See my answer to Ruby Red Infinite.

Brother.M

@rubyredinfinite9949 Rosary addicts want to go to purgatory but it isn't real so they just go straight to hell.

Peter Wallis

@peterwallis4288

@br.m lol. So you dont believe Jesus when he said if you believe in me and are baptised, you will be saved? (Paraphrasing). Why would it matter to salvation if you pray the rosary or not? I think, like other prayers, it is good, but its not going to either qualify or disqualify you from heaven. Why would you think that?

Brother.M

@peterwallis4288 Baptism saves? What about the thief on the cross?

Peter Wallis

@br.m that's what Jesus said to Niccodemus.

And the theif couldn't be baptised. I think if you are able to do so, it is expected of you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@br.m The thief on the cross was saved while the Old Testament was still in function.

The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus was published while the New Covenant was already functional.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@br.m Actually, wanting to go to Purgatory (which is Biblically at least half endorsed) is not typical of Catholics, unless they are lukewarm.

Being addicted to the Rosary is no worse than being addicted to God's grace. The question is not whether a behaviour is "addictive" but whether the chosen activity one is behaving is good.

Brother.M

@hglundahl Purgatory is not Biblical. What are Catholics if not lukewarm?

Being addicted to the rosary is worse. The question is belief or unbelief. The problem is Roman Catholics are not yet disciples of Jesus. They are occupied with other things and don't take Jesus and the Bible seriously.

@hglundahl Friend what do you mean "the thief on the cross was saved while the Old Testament was still in function"? Where did you learn this?

So the Thief on the cross was saved by an older covenant? The Mosaic covenant? So you are saying the thief on the cross was saved by the law? Can you show me where in the Bible you read this?

Brother.M

@peterwallis4288 Jesus told Nicodemus not to play with the rosary?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@br.m "Purgatory is not Biblical."

Some view of most dead needing to be prayed for certainly is, II Maccabees 12. Even if you did not see this as Biblical, supposing (as is probable) you have the fake 66 book canon, you would still need to account for the idea existing among Jews in Jesus' time and before, and Him not rebuking it.

"What are Catholics if not lukewarm?"

All sorts. There are lukewarm. There are scrupulous. There are totally disaffected, and there are real saints.

"The problem is Roman Catholics are not yet disciples of Jesus."

You have no warrant for that idea. Not from the Rosary, and not from anything else.

"So you are saying the thief on the cross was saved by the law?"

I actually did not say that. I said he was saved WHILE it was in function, and BEFORE it was replaced by the New Covenant.

I will admit, I have assumed that the moment one covenant was replaced by the other, was the moment Jesus died on the Cross, and this obviously had not yet happened when Jesus declared the thief justified. He was not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith that went with it, and which could still be expressed by those works.

"Jesus told Nicodemus not to play with the rosary?"

Jesus told no one ever to avoid the rosary, or long singing of psalms. Just because Calvin had an aversion and inserted it into the Geneva Bible's Matthew 6:7, from whence it came to the King James, also heretical, it doesn't follow Jesus shared this aversion or that it is in the correct text of Matthew 6:7.

When it comes to Baptism saving, Peter Wallis and myself are both referring to John 3:5.

This is continued

on Brother.M and Peter Wallis Continued

4:37 Sorry, I misjudged what you were going to say.

But there definitely are Protestants around me I'm not misjudging.

6:32 Did the Holy Ghost make King David an example for us?

Seven times a day I have given praise to thee, for the judgments of thy justice.
[Psalms 118:164]

Praying the hours really is Biblical. That's why monks and priests and nuns do it. It's not an obligation for everyone, though.

8:11 "in paradise" ... Jesus didn't say that they were in Heaven above, they were arguably down in Sheol where Abraham and David, Adam and Eve were waiting for their redeemer.

Even before Jesus went down, that part of Sheol was fairly paradisal, but with the soul of Jesus down there, that would have been paradise, like Heaven is now, since they have all gone up.

10:35 The guys who prayed for me to stop praying the rosary have deprived me of resting in Christ, or at least reduced it.

There are guys over here I wouldn't want to pray the rosary with because they too pray for wrong things for me, which after being in their parish for 2~3 years depending on how you count I can be sure of. And praying the rosary involves praying Our Father and forgiving enemies. But apart from that, I'd prefer, or at least I should prefer going back to the rosary.

No, praying the rosary is not a violation of Matthew 6:7. Yes, it is obedience to Ephesians 5:18.

10:49 Is it the room on the screen or is it your Protestantism?

A Catholic will never quote Ephesians 2:8,9. A Catholic will quote Ephesians 2:8,9 and 10.

11:04 But note, Jesus will not say that because they were "too works based" but because they didn't have the right priorities in their works:

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock
[Matthew 7:23-24]

(sigh, there is some Matthew 6:15 to catch up on, if I want to go to Heaven).

11:38 You are contradicting Ephesians 2:10 and II Peter 1:10.

And Even More Tolkien

All answers

6 years ago, so not mentioned. If a comment is more recent, the date is mentioned.

Q I

Are there any professional linguists that have attempted to write about Tolkien's constructed languages? Where can I access such texts on the Internet?
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-professional-linguists-that-have-attempted-to-write-about-Tolkiens-constructed-languages-Where-can-I-access-such-texts-on-the-Internet/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

If Bible translator counts as professional linguist, Helge Fauskanger is one.

https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/

Hans-Georg Lundahl

THIS VERSION OF ARDALAMBION WILL NO LONGER BE UPDATED, AND THE URL WILL BE DISCONTINUED. PLEASE REFER TO THE UPDATED VERSION OF THE SITE AT THE NEW PERMANENT LOCATION AT ARDALAMBION.NET

Q II

Has there been any attempt to parse Tolkien's constructed languages through computational linguistics to deeply analyze the logical structure of the syntax and semantics?
https://www.quora.com/Has-there-been-any-attempt-to-parse-Tolkiens-constructed-languages-through-computational-linguistics-to-deeply-analyze-the-logical-structure-of-the-syntax-and-semantics/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

I think there is no real need, since Quenya has a structure similar to Finnish and Sindarin to Welsh.

Q III

Do you think that unfinished Tolkien Stories should be adapted into full novels? Which authors would be suitable for this task?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-that-unfinished-Tolkien-Stories-should-be-adapted-into-full-novels-Which-authors-would-be-suitable-for-this-task/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Answer requested by

Nicholas Miner

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

Fan fictions based on such are clearly licit as fan fiction.

When it comes to officially approved ones, for his heirs to decide.

I am basing one character in my Susan fic - her husband - loosely on The Lost Road.

And that one is, as said, a fan fiction.

Q IV

What would it take for a young-earth creationist to believe that the Earth is way older than 10,000 years?
https://www.quora.com/What-would-it-take-for-a-young-earth-creationist-to-believe-that-the-Earth-is-way-older-than-10-000-years/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Blog : "http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com". Debating evolutionists for 15 years +.

I am a Young Earth Creationist.

If Tolkien had written Genesis as a novel drafted together with a few others after his death to a volume first published in 1973 or 1974, and if Silmarillion had been the heritage of an observable elvish civilisation, and had been known for centuries or millennia, and that as an at least reputed history, I would have believed the world was as old as Silmarillion said.

History of Arda - Wikipedia

Q V

One of Círdan's names is Nowë, can it be a wordplay with Noé, the French name for Noah?
https://www.quora.com/One-of-C%C3%ADrdans-names-is-Now%C3%AB-can-it-be-a-wordplay-with-No%C3%A9-the-French-name-for-Noah/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

Probably.

French has it from Latin, and Latin was a language Tolkien was very familiar with. And the Vulgate has it from LXX.

In other words, not per se on French Noé, but rather on the Latin and LXX Greek behind the French.

Q VI

Why is J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings considered to be such a classic?
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-J-R-R-Tolkiens-Lord-of-the-Rings-considered-to-be-such-a-classic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

This question previously had details. They are now in a comment.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

"Why is J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings considered to be such a classic?"

Because it is enjoyed by so many and this, by now, in the third generation of readers. (I think, before third generation, it is too soon to decide between “Classic” and “one generation hit”).

"I have read the LOTR and I really enjoyed it."

Then you can understand why it is a Classic - unless by Classic you means sth other than what is universally enjoyed, which it should not mean. You can understand it in the most relevant way.

"At points I thought it pandered on far too much in terms of description and backstory, but that's just a personal opinion."

First, an aside. Take a look at another Classic to check what "pander" means. In Troilus and Cressida or Troilus and Criseide (Shakespear and Chaucer share the writing honour with Boccaccio, where the title is Il Filostrato - there are three versions) there is a character known as Pandar or Pandarus. Acting like him is to "pander". If “pander” is used in any other way, it is more or less misused.

To the point, now. Many Classics (I nearly said all) have a lot of depth and many sides and not all sides are enjoyed by all readers, including those who otherwise enjoy it.

For my part, I thought "a long expected party" boring, laid the book aside and then later started rereading chapter 1 (with some effort, I am now more familiar with what hobbits have as social relations and enjoy the chapter more than then).

Perhaps you just loved chapter 1. Many people do, and in Peter Jackson chapter 1 becomes a masterpiece of half rural festivity. On the other hand, Peter Jackson seems to either have missed what is special about the Tom Bombadil chapters, or at least to have

"I partly understand the literary achievement of what Tolkien accomplished,"

As said, Classics are books universally enjoyable, therefore universally enjoyed. If not by all readers, at least to readers of a similar and often recurring type independent of age, sex, profession and the time they live in (among those available since first publication, or many of them).

They are NOT defined by how "great" the literary "achievement" is.

"that he created a setting of good vs evil involving multiple races"

He was very much not the first.

"that have been ripped off to high heaven by every subsequent fantasy author"

Not more than he "ripped off" some others. But “ripping off” such general setting features is not “ripoff” in legal terms, I don’t approve of using it so in critical ones.

"and his invention of multiple languages and scripts."

Enjoyable as it is, the achievement is in this case not purely literary.

The literary effect of "elen síla lumenn'omentielvo" (a star shines on the hour of our meeting) and "Tarzan ko-korak" (Tarzan/White-skin great-killer) is similar, and that the language of the great apes is without a script and much nearer to Syldavian in sketchiness than to Quenya in elaboration is without literary importance.

As a phrase is given in the novel, the phrase gives an impression of strangeness.

Different kinds of exotism, different kinds of strangeness. As different from each other as Karl May giving a phrase in Arabic in one Orient cycle novel and a phrase in Apatche or Shoshone in a Wild West novel. The literary effect is similar in so far as we know the main person (Frodo, Jane, Sharli/Kara ben Nemsi) is hearing a language not his or her own or even using one not his or her own, and one beyond the ken of the usual reader too.

The different talents in conlanging are as irrelevant to this effect as the fact that Karl May was not a conlanger, but used dictionaries or language experts.

So Tolkien inventing many languages makes him a great conlanger, but not in and of itself a great novelist. Or romance writer.

Tolkien using mellifluous Quenya for good elves, and harsh Black Speech for Uruk hai (the language of Pal ul Don seems to fall between them in sound type) is of course making Middle-earth a bit a "planet of the hats" - a place where moral allegiance can be seen from the outside, before specific good or evil acts occur, due to something worn or used in speech.

In general realistic-novelistic terms, this would be a fault - but all Classics are not "novels" (of the Jane Austen type), some are, like Tarzan and Lord of the Rings, romances. And in romance, neither exotism nor "planet of the hats" is a faulty thing.

What is more speaking of his "literary achievement" is that the hobbit parts of the human/near-human characters are probably as good novel writing as Trollope (never did look into Trollope, can't tell for sure), while the romance, totally alien to Trollope (I suppose) is also there, and the two do not fall apart.

At the same time darker types of novel writing (like Dostoyevsky) enter into Tolkien's descriptions of certain key characters. If you know how successful the recent "ponerogenesis" of an originally good Anakin Skywalker is, you might appreciate that Tolkien has more than one example of ponerogenesis and in diverse degrees of evil achieved, redeemable vs non-redeemable, great mage vs "addict and nest robber", failed/flawed statesman vs despicable traitor (OK, in Gríma, the ponerogenesis is unsubtle, he loved gold and desired a gal who despised him).

I have on one occasion compared Tolkien to Dostoyevsky by saying Dostoyevsky is too dark to be enjoyable (except to a more exceptional and élite type of reader than the usual Tolkien one), and Tolkien says the same things (on certain, not all subjects), but in a setting where this darkness does not exclude touches of light.

Imagine you had someone facing Dostoyevsky, Dracula and Little House on the Prairie. He wanted to preach about how people either become evil, or stay good (perhaps not so much of how they become good again, unlike Dostoyevsky who is directly confronting us with Grace - like Karl May in places), he wanted to make moral evil, the dark thoughts of the heart as eerie as ... Lucy Westenra removing the garlic after opening the window. He also wanted it to be not too dark, not too horror as Dracula, not too morally depressive as Dostyevsky, and so he wanted to include several dashes of Little House of the Prairie or Li'l Abner. Imagine that guy opens Tolkien ... "oh, someone already did that"!

But a literary achievement does not confer enjoyability, let alone universal enjoyability on a work.

This means, there is not much "understanding" involved. A book becomes a Classic by a mystery. If Apollonius Rhodus could analyse what Homer did, in great detail, and try to emulate it, there are probable reasons why a Homer fan need not be too excited to lay his hands on Argonautica. Especially if he doesn't like hints about exactly what Hercules felt for Iolaus. Hints which would probably have made Oscar Wilde blush. I have not read the work, but I was renting a room with a guy who made a thesis on it.

Then in comes Virgil, some centuries after Apollonius, and his Aeneid is a super masterpiece even better than Homer in some ways (which Tolkien analysed en passant in his discussion of Beowulf poem).

"Also, how his LOTR reflected the changing, evolving world that he saw around him,"

*Tolkien peacefully smoking chokes on the pipe ...*

"Darn, does it now? I tried to avoid exactly that!"

Back to your concerns:

"but I would love for someone with a literary background to answer this question detailing exactly why Tolkien is considered such a superstar in academic circles."

My "literary background" is, as you may see, a more Tolkien centred and Edgar Rice Burrough's centred than a Dostoyevsky centred one.

As to why he is considered a superstar "in academic circles," it depends on where you are and when you study it. I don't know where you are, but my guess is, whereever it is, Tolkien was considered as a huge no no back in the 70's. And he's a hero now, because of a new generation being tired of that rigmarole. In some places that anti-Tolkien rigmarole is still in place.

Q VII

What mystery do you find most interesting within The Lord Of The Rings universe for which Tolkien never provides an answer?
https://www.quora.com/What-mystery-do-you-find-most-interesting-within-The-Lord-Of-The-Rings-universe-for-which-Tolkien-never-provides-an-answer/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

The identity of Tom Bombadil.

Q VIII

Did Tolkien ever say which events mark the end of the Fourth, the Fifth and the Sixth Age, being that we are in the Seventh Age?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-ever-say-which-events-mark-the-end-of-the-Fourth-the-Fifth-and-the-Sixth-Age-being-that-we-are-in-the-Seventh-Age/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

We are in Sixth, perhaps Seventh, age. As I recall the quote.

Normally in Catholic theology, birth of Christ marks beginning of Sixth age, and Seventh Age would normally be the eternal glory.

If he said “perhaps seventh”, it is because he was “millennialist,” and placed millennium as seventh age, but recognised that most Catholic theologians have identified millennium with “Church age”, so that would perhaps make AD 33 the Seventh Age starting.

Q IX

Tolkien was anti-industrialist. What was his opinion of colonialism which was closely linked with industry?
https://www.quora.com/Tolkien-was-anti-industrialist-What-was-his-opinion-of-colonialism-which-was-closely-linked-with-industry/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

His view of colonialism is complex, consider ALL Numenoreans in Middle-Earth as examples of some kind of colonialism and then consider “Black Numenoreans” (referring to allegiance, not skin colour) as the bad colonisers and Aragorn taking over Harad as a very good one (note, Sauron also had colonised Harad, both the “Berber style” near Harad and the “Negro style” far Harad).

I share it. You cannot put a man like Cecil Rhodes and a man like Brazza in the same moral basket, just because both were colonialists.

Obviously, he was not a huge fan of very big trade agreements displacing very large portions of the physical economy. Especially since this tends to modes of production like large industries.

While business as such may be a good thing, the bigger the business, the less likely it is to be honest business.

Comment deleted

September 1, 2018

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I’d agree, both on your view of Tolkien and with him.

I consider this passage would refer to Black Numenoreans, though.

“since the West was denied”

I e, animosity against the Valar’s Ban.

What is told here is the first stage which leads some colonialists (both Numenoreans in Middle-Earth and some “more recent” - real life - examples) to divorce themselves from Christian ethics and eventually get into some cult like, at worst, Satanism.

Q X

Should I include a real religion in fantasy novels, or should I create a fictional religion?
https://www.quora.com/Should-I-include-a-real-religion-in-fantasy-novels-or-should-I-create-a-fictional-religion/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?6y

Depends on your beliefs, doesn’t it?

C. S. Lewis and Tolkien basically asked things like:

• how would Christianity look like on another planet (Cosmic Trilogy)
• in another world (Narnia)
• in our own world, but with the revelations transmitted by elves in pre-Flood and possibly even pre-Adamite pre-history if that time had existed (Middle-earth).

Jeff Smith involved a fictional religion, both for the good ones and the bad ones, founded on one same myth, namely other dragons locking dragon Mim / Lord of the Locusts in to preserve equilibrium (goody version) or Lord of the Locusts seeking to give back to himself and his followers freedom and power and domination over others, righteously, since holily (baddy version, with some Crusader vibes).

Jeff Smith just might be antireligious and using the fictitious religion to spoof certain real ones, which he thinks badly of.

In Conan (whose author was a freemason, occultist and suicide) depicted fictitious religions, good or bad, in his view, reflect his occultist concerns. That is why I quit reading Conan.

I am myself dealing with, if the Telmarines in our world (see end of Prince Caspian) are divided into Aslan worshippers and Tash worshippers, how would Tash worshippers act (one identified, fairly correctly, Satan as Tash), and would Aslan worshippers need a Christian missionary (I am beginning to pose Susan née Pevensie and her husband Audoin Errol for such a role in a sequel to what I am writing right now).

So, your choice will probably reflect your outlook in some way. But it is yours, not mine.

Q XI

In soundtracks, is the chant usually nonsense, or is it actual words? I know for LotR and the Hobbit, lyrics were written in Tolkien's languages. What happens in most movies where there is no unique language? Is the chant just in Latin?
https://www.quora.com/In-soundtracks-is-the-chant-usually-nonsense-or-is-it-actual-words-I-know-for-LotR-and-the-Hobbit-lyrics-were-written-in-Tolkiens-languages-What-happens-in-most-movies-where-there-is-no-unique-language-Is-the-chant-just-in-Latin/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

It depends very much on what kind of film it is, a fantasy film could well have a conlang, a medieval one in latin, a romantic comedy would usually have it in French or English or Spanish.

Q XII

In Lord of the Rings, can a human use magic?
https://www.quora.com/In-Lord-of-the-Rings-can-a-human-use-magic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

Depending on how you define magic, yes and no as to licitness, definitely yes as to possibility. To mortals, that is men or hobbits (or to dwarfs, which is something else).

Using a magic ring is a possibility - but forbidden. Nine men become evil and twisted shadows of themselves, because of this, some other mortals include Isildur who was betrayed by the ring and killed by Orcs, Smeagol who became a long living and evil thing, called Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo Baggins and Sam Gamgee who managed to stay or again become good, but who were hurt and needed healing.

Using a palantir used to be licit but has become forbidden to all except the strongest, spiritually. One hobbit uncautiously watched into it and was saved only by Gandalf acting the exorcist.

Apart from that, there is the question of “magic objects” like doors opening when a word is pronounced or letters invisible becoming invisible under certain constellations of moon light or star light or cloaks which make you not strictly invisible, but easier to overlook, or ropes which are serviceable in getting unhooked when needed (unless that was Gollum, or a knot being bad). That is basically a standin for technology.

Note in this context, the palantir could be seen as belonging to this category, but back when TV and radio channels were few, in certain cases one could be dealing with “a palantir with communication hijacked by” well, either Saruman or Sauron. I e, by demons.

These objects were produced by elves, who are not mortals and therefore have other capacities increated, not acquired by incantations, and the objects are in such cases useable by mortals much like technology is useable by people unable to produce or repair it. If you consider this magic, yes, then mortals could in LotR “licitly use magic”.

Note very well, Tolkien could have envisaged a scenario in which Mosaic ban on magic came thousands of years later, after all good elves had gone over the “straight road” and after all “magic” that was left was by now demonic, i e acquired by mortals through incantations.

From one other answer:

"Many Men had the gift of foresight, including Aragorn. I consider his healing powers to be magical too—tthey certainly were not biological."

Note, Ernest W. Adams is a kind of Atheist or Deist (not sure exactly which), and is using "magic" as a Catholic Christian would not.

Foresight, reading character, being a healer because you are a king, these are all things which no Catholic would call "magic" in a sense close to "magic arts", since these are things which, even currently, can be completely legitimate gifts of God.

Certain kings of Christendom have been proving their legitimacy by curing scrofles, in the case of French and English, or by making exorcism, in the case of Spanish ones.

Will Farmer

3 years ago

What about Elven Rings?

Digibeet

2 years ago

Foresight, reading character, being a healer because you are a king, these are all things which no Catholic would call "magic" in a sense close to "magic arts", since these are things which, even currently, can be completely legitimate gifts of God.

I am slightly confused about this. From what I know (which admittedly is more about what, for example, the Inquisition believed (as I am sure you know, they didn’t think magic was wrong but the belief in it was, along with other superstition (their words, not mine)), healing hands could be both magic (as in bad) and good (as in justified) depending on who did it. So someone who was known to be pious and compliant would’ve been seen as having received a gift of God, and someone doing the exact same thing but less liked by the church would’ve been seen as performing magic. Is that at all accurate? And if so, can you explain how one action could be seen as magic (and thus, in their eyes, wrong) and good even if it has the exact same consequences (healing, in this case)? And why in the latter case isn’t it just called good magic, or something like that?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

21.IX.2024

St. Matthew's Day

I think different Inquisitors differred, and you might be featuring a version a bit older than when what we usually call the Inquisition came to exist

Q XIII

Did Tolkien and Lewis ever meet?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-and-Lewis-ever-meet/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

It’s like asking if Boswell and Doctor Johnson ever met …

Tolkien and CSL were meeting every Tuesday evening for certain years, during terms, and in holidays sometimes went walking together.

Q XIV

What do you think life would be like on Earth, if Adam and Eve would not have rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden?
https://www.quora.com/What-do-you-think-life-would-be-like-on-Earth-if-Adam-and-Eve-would-not-have-rebelled-against-God-in-the-Garden-of-Eden/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?

Tolkien invented the Elves to answer the question.

Note, his Eldar and the Elves of folklore are not identic, he made a very peculiar interpretation of the theme.

They are his “unfallen race”.

Q XV

Is there any practice of alchemy in Tolkien's world?
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-practice-of-alchemy-in-Tolkiens-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

Not really.

Two “wizards” are both angelic but temporarily corporate beings, one of them, staying good, is practising what could be considered as “fire magic” as well as exorcism, the other is more into genetic engineering than into alchemy.

I have spoken of Gandalf and Saruman.

Rully Armando

at the moment Gandalf open the doors of Durin, shall we consider that some spells combine with alchemy being made by elves in that entrance?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Possibly.

But we could note that similar effects are clearly within our technological reach now.

Obviously, the word “mellon” would have to be pronounced exactly right, not sth the computer work would take as “mallon” or “millun”.

If this is “alchemy”, it is at least offstage, we would be seeing results of it, not the process itself.

Q XVI

Is Lord of The Rings a beautiful gay love story that narrates the struggle of homosexual couples in society?
https://www.quora.com/Is-Lord-of-The-Rings-a-beautiful-gay-love-story-that-narrates-the-struggle-of-homosexual-couples-in-society/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

Tolkien’s friend C. S. Lewis wrote a novel - That Hideous Strength - in which Merlin, come to our times, expresses extreme horror at the use of contraceptives in what would otherwise be a heterosexual marriage.

Since CSL himself accepted the 1930 Lambeth Conference, I think, or partly, though was against a couple in his acquaintances opting for no children at all, he presumably took the stricter view as the historically Christian one for his character from his Catholic friend.

Q XVII

Why is it called 'Lord of the Rings' when there is only one ring in the story?
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-called-Lord-of-the-Rings-when-there-is-only-one-ring-in-the-story/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

There is one ring throughout the story, but there are hints of the three and seven and nine rings too.

Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel carry the three elven rings, not made by Sauron, but which could be dominated by his ring if he came to use it, Gandalf not being an elf and having his from Cirdan who was.

The seven rings are those given to dwarfs to ensnare them in greed, and are the matter of The Hobbit.

The nine rings were given to men, producing the ringwraiths. All nine of them are deathless evils, quasi corpses animated by demons. They are also Sauron’s crew to get back his one ring. They and Sauron are loosely based on Koshchey the Deathless.

Q XVIII

What if Star Wars had been written by J.R.R. Tolkien?
https://www.quora.com/What-if-Star-Wars-had-been-written-by-J-R-R-Tolkien/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

There would for instance not have been a “light side” and a “dark side” of same force, monarchism would not have been the fault of Palpatine, and Jedis would not have been initiated into using the force.

“Don’t touch the ring, Frodo!”

Q XIX

Are all recent works of fantasy influenced by Tolkein?
https://www.quora.com/Are-all-recent-works-of-fantasy-influenced-by-Tolkein/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Answer requested by

Sharla Moody

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

No, some are, some are not, some are influenced by others, some are directly opposed to Tolkien influence.

GRRM is in some ways an Anti-Tolkien, I have heard, like Dark Materials is an Anti-Narnia.

Narnia was also not influenced by Tolkien.

Q XX

Since pipe-weed is tobacco and not marijuana, why did Tolkien call it "pipe-weed" and not just "tobacco"?
https://www.quora.com/Since-pipe-weed-is-tobacco-and-not-marijuana-why-did-Tolkien-call-it-pipe-weed-and-not-just-tobacco/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

My own hunch is this : while solanum species could theoretically have been here in Old World in very remote pre-Columbian times, they would not have had names from Amerindian languages.

With potato, he solves this by saying “taters”. Sounds very English, very unconnected to Americas.

With tobacco, he solves this by replacing the Amerindian name with a description of its function. Tobacco plant looks like certain weeds and it is put into the pipe (that name is not from Americas).

With tomato, he solves this (I think) by omitting it totally. Not sure if he did so in The Hobbit, but I can’t see any tomato reference in my memories from LotR.

The one good thing Middle Ages didn’t have … or one of them, at least. Actually all of above.

A

Ricardo Taglianni

I think “taters” is about American country as you can get. In fact, Ron White (a famous southern comedian), is called “Tater Salad”.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I meant unconnected to pre-Columbian Americas.

South is obviously England trasnplanted to Americas.

B

Jonas Balle Petersen

Many people do not know that tobacco did not exist until Columbus brought it from America. When he arrived and started blowing smoke out of their nostrils, the Christian population exclaimed: “this is the devil’s work!”. But little by little the unscrupulous merchants managed to convince people about its great qualities. Up until the 1950’s tobacco was promoted in ads by doctors! Now it's only the Marlboro mythical Hero-man who keeps the scam going about the virtues of tobacco.

I thank Allaah (God) that some things have changed to the better as some awareness of health risks etc. have appeared. However, I believe the tobacco companies are still thriving greatly on their killer-industry.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“Many people do not know that tobacco did not exist until Columbus brought it from America”

Obviously tobacco did exist in Americas.

Tolkien’s point in that letter is, it could have existed earlier on and gone extinct in Old World too.

Tobacco taken with moderation is not too dangerous, tobacco taken immoderately is, in the long run (soldiers obviously have more urgent risks and may do well to use tobacco to face them with more agility).

Q XXI

In Lord of the Rings, what manner of being is Tom Bombadil?
https://www.quora.com/In-Lord-of-the-Rings-what-manner-of-being-is-Tom-Bombadil/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

This question previously had details. They are now in a comment.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

“There are a number of different types of natural and supernatural beings in the Tolkien universe, but it doesn't seem incredibly clear what Tom is.”

You can say THAT again.

Tom Bombadil is the true elf, insofar as the medieval universe had lots of inhabitants, all of which were identified as irrational or rational, in the latter case embodied or not, and also fallen or unfallen.

The medieval view of elves were not that they were embodied and as a race unfallen rationals, as in Tolkien, the medieval view of elves is, no one know what they were.

They appear. They disappear. They identify by names - but not by cosmic hierarchic status.

Pekka considers Tom Bombadil has for literary origins a certain Väinämöinen. Partly true, but so has Gandalf at least as much. And if Väinämöinen tried to take Sampo instead of destroying it, well, you see Saruman as a comment on that if you like, and Radagast as much as Tom Bombadil of Väinämöinen’s closeness to forestial nature.

Tom Bombadil is equally close to “the Green Knight” - one of these medieval elves who appear but don’t identify their cosmic status and allegiance.

Tom Bombadil is also in some part inspired by Melchisedec. A pre-medieval non identifying, except he identifies as a priest - and Tom Bombadil instead identifies as an exorcist. He could have been to Baptism what the real life Melchisedec was to the Eucharist. He is in a sense unfallen man. He can touch the ring and not be tempted and he is master of all animals, as Adam was in Eden.

Tom Bombadil is ALSO the one full scale view we get on settled matrimonial happiness. I think we see as much of Tom Bombadil’s relation to Goldberry as we see of:

• Aragorn married to Arwen
• Faramir married to Eowyn
• and Sam Gamgee married to Rosie, née Cotton

all at the end of the novel. All taken together.

Since we see them as immortal, it is less offensive that they do not seem to have children - old couples who already had the children or young couples who for a month or week discuss what the children’s names shall be can be not pregnant or already fully parenting and yet respectable. With immortals, this could go on for centuries.

But what Tom Bombadil is in terms of the universe, that is another matter. One theory I saw on a site considered he was the Vala Aule, and Goldberry was Yavanna. On the other hand, this does not quite agree with Sauron ultimately being a threat to the two, since Aule could beat even Morgoth and definitely then Sauron. So, the mystery remains unsolved.

A

Fergus Hancock

I thought I had read a comment from Tolkien that Bombadil needed no justification, as he wanted a or a few characters who played no other role than to form part of nature, immune to the power of the Ring (and more powerful than the wights of the Barrow Downs).

There are alternatives that could draw Tom into the story, but he was so unreliable and could not understand the desire for the Ring or its destructive power it would have diminished the story. If you will, he was the unnecessary character who played a very minor part, though important in the overall scheme of things, as Erestor or Glrofindel.

Contrast his role with other side players, if they were also not directly threatened or commanded by the main characters. Imagine Treebeard refusing to go to war with Saruman, or the Dead not following Aragorn to Pelargir and not being central to Aragorn’s appearance on the black ships at the battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don’t think I mentioned “justification”, I mentioned explanations.

Apart from that polemic beginning (if rightly so taken), I agree with everything you say, though I wish you could reference which of his Letters …

Fergus Hancock

Hans-Georg, I apologise if I wrote in a polemic manner. It was no my intent. Tom B always puzzled me, to the point of being infuriating. That such a careless spirit existed, not only immune to the Ring, but without any concern over the threat it imposed on Middle Earth, seemed out of role across the entire LoTR universe.

Letter 19, written in 1937 after the Hobbit was published, but before LoTR had been developed…

...But I am sure you will sympathize when I say that the construction of elaborate and consistent mythology (and two languages) rather occupies my mind....Mr Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm’s fairytale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it—so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge. And what more can hobbits do? They can be comic, but their comedy is suburban unless it is set against things more elemental. But the real fun about orcs and dragons (to my mind) was before their time. Perhaps a new (if similar) line? Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story? Or is he, as I suspect, fully enshrined in the enclosed verses? Still I could enlarge the portrait.... “

Letter 144, written in April 1954 to Naomi Mitchelson, who was reviewing draft edits of LoTR:

...Tom Bombadil is not an important person – to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a ‘comment’. I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken ‘a vow of poverty’, renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view in Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron....”

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Oh thank you very much!

Always appreciate rereading his letters!

“That such a careless spirit existed, not only immune to the Ring, but without any concern over the threat it imposed on Middle Earth, seemed out of role across the entire LoTR universe.”

Arguably, that is why he is important as comment.

You can’t add an inch to your stature by taking care, but you can add a lot of inches to it by being careless - you know who said that and what Tolkien thought of him?

B

David Dahlbacka

5 years ago

Being childless is offensive? To whom?

Q XXII

Is it not strange that Tolkien didn't use any Catholic (Latin) theology/history as source material? Wasn't he a devout Catholic?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-not-strange-that-Tolkien-didnt-use-any-Catholic-Latin-theology-history-as-source-material-Wasnt-he-a-devout-Catholic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Converted to Roman Catholic Church, Novus Ordo version, then to Trad.

He very much did use Catholic theology as source material, for the general feeling of events : providence, free will, sin and temptation are very present all over the material.

If you get to close analysis or ask on his own opinion on things, it is very Thomistic.

However, as to Catholic history in the sense of Church history, that would be events which would have happened later than the supposed time of the legendarium (like conventional evolutionism, he provides an image with 4004 BC already having a long history before itself - but in the case of the legendarium, one in which valar, maiar, elves and men do bring back “male and female” to “the beginning of creation”.

Q XXIII

How do people create languages (not programming ones)?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-people-create-languages-not-programming-ones/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Answer requested by

BigDulles

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I speak two langs, Latin and Germanic. In a few dialects.

Answering question posed as:

“How do people create languages (not programming ones)?” (I underline the word people for a reason).

• usually by carrying on the one one inherited with slight differences, which in time add up to mutual unintelligibility;
• these may among other things be caused by interference between two or several languages someone speaks (I pronounce “e” in “pen” a bit too open, I confuse non-accented “e” and “é” in French, though I do by now know it’s “besoin de début” and not **”bésoin de debut” : both due to Swedish pronunciation habits around letter E)
• sometimes also by constructing languages, like Quenya or Dothraki for art or like Volapük and Esperanto for communication.

In case you wondered about this last part, it involves conscious use of linguistic knowledge. It always involves the kind of features of a language which are needed to learn it (“he speaks, they speak” : how is number and persons of a verb subject shown, only by separate words or also by ending, or even by ending only, and is ending alternative or agreeing with separate words?) and optionally involves features of a language known to those studying its history (what outcome do you expect of an original “sie camon” and what was “they went” in Anglo-Saxon).

Esperanto for instance involves no fictional or constructed history internal to the language. (Its replacing a Volapük and its being sometimes replaced by an Ido or Inlingua is an external only matter, one would nearly say, since these are constructed on other plans).

Quenya and Sindarin share a common root, a fictional history : Sindarin celeb and Telerin telepe borrowed into Quenya telpe are supposed to come all from same proto-Eldarin … I tried to check on Ardalambion, but Helge Fauskanger took … ah, in the Quenya word list it comes notified as KYELEP-.

There have obviously not been thousands or ten thousands of years in which real elves have been speaking the various tongues, but the relationship between Quenya, Sindarin and Telerin to Proto-Eldarin mimics such a history. And does it really well.

Tolkien Again

Q I

What were the occupations of Tolkien's elves?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-occupations-of-Tolkiens-elves/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

19.IX.2024

If it hasn’t occurred to you, elves in Tolkien are supposed to be populations. Not just a caste.

This means, every occupation necessary to make a society subsist.

Lots were artisans, some were poets and grammarians, some were rulers, some were good at wild life subsistence (like Indians and Trappers).

THEN we have the food trades.

Lawyers, no. Priests, despite someone else’s answer, no: Tolkien did not spell out how worship of the true God would have been organised, except it basically wouldn’t have been, at this time in imagined prehistory. Money-lenders taking interest, also no (actually true for Dwarves and even of Men and Hobbits).

Production wasn’t organised on Fordist principles in Elven society.

Q II

Did Tolkien write any songs? If so, how many?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Tolkien-write-any-songs-If-so-how-many/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 7 2024

He wrote text portions and sometimes sang them.

Almost any poetry in Tolkien is a song text.

Q III

Why are a lot of high fantasies set in times that are like a dark age when compared to the past of their own worlds, like how the first and second ages in LOTR are much grander than the third age in which it takes place?
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-a-lot-of-high-fantasies-set-in-times-that-are-like-a-dark-age-when-compared-to-the-past-of-their-own-worlds-like-how-the-first-and-second-ages-in-LOTR-are-much-grander-than-the-third-age-in-which-it-takes/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 6 2024

I am not sure a “dark age” is how I would qualify it.

The latter part of Third age was dark for Eriador, but not for Gondor or Rohan.

Greater heros from the past are sometimes greater because it’s often the heroic that’s remembered of them.

But dark can be taken in another meaning than technological or demographic reduction. Dark like the Apocalypse is dark. The reason, if you ask me, is, many works both of High Fantasy and of Children’s Fantasy are meditations on the Apocalypse:

• Akallabêth (published as chapter of The Silmarillion)
• The Lord of the Rings
• The Last Battle
• Elidor
• The Brothers Lionheart

Meanwhile, the series beginning with A Wrinkle in Time is about avoiding an Apocalypse, avoiding an Antichrist figure from even emerging.

Tolkien saw both so far World Wars, so did C S Lewis. Astrid Lindgren was a child during World War I, and saw World War II. Madeleine l’Engle was born within a month of the World War I armistice. That and the Cold War made some people think about the book of the end times.

Q IV

Did J.R.R. Tolkien create all of the languages in his works, or did he draw inspiration from other sources? If he did borrow, where did he find inspiration for these languages?
https://www.quora.com/Did-J-R-R-Tolkien-create-all-of-the-languages-in-his-works-or-did-he-draw-inspiration-from-other-sources-If-he-did-borrow-where-did-he-find-inspiration-for-these-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 6 2024

I’ll give you a sample of inspirationS for Quenya.

Phonology: Finnish and Homeric Greek.
Verbal morphology: Greek.
Noun morphology: between Latin and Finnish, not all that far from Turkish, with some Greek inspired choices, like Genitive in -o.
Giving adjectives a separate ending from nouns: Esperanto.

Vocabulary:
alqua, swan — Icelandic álft (close enough to Sindarin alph, supposed cognate of alqua, so Sindarin was more directly inspired by Icelandic in this case, Quenya indirectly over reconstructing its cognate to alph)
pé, mouth — Hebrew
lá, no, not (one word for no) — Arabic
[different words for no — Greek had it too (and I think so has Arabic)]
ranca, hand or arm — Lithuanian
tulen, I come — Finnish
tiuca, thick — Scandinavian languages
serce (=serke), blood — probably a mixture of Greek “sarka” with Polish “serce” (sertse), the one meaning flesh and the other heart, the things that blood flows between.

In other words, since he was widely read in languages, he was able to get inspirations from so many different of them that the result is an original thing. Reminds me of a Greek professor. Mine, actually. He said (of papers, not conlangs) “use one source, it’s plagiarism, use two, it’s compilation, use three [or more], it’s original research”

The point being, on Professor Blomqvist’s criteria, Tolkien did certainly not plagiarise one language.

EDIT: correction, the Greek professor didn’t say “use” he said “copy” …

Q V

Will there ever be a writer that surpasses Shakespeare?
https://www.quora.com/Will-there-ever-be-a-writer-that-surpasses-Shakespeare/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

[This question previously had details. They are now in a comment.]

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 4 2024

I think two maybe actually did. Tolkien[1] and Lewis.[2]

Footnotes

[1] J. R. R. Tolkien - Wikipedia
[2] C. S. Lewis - Wikipedia

Q VI

What is the opinion of modern fantasy writers on J.R.R. Tolkien's works, such as "The Lord of the Rings"?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opinion-of-modern-fantasy-writers-on-J-R-R-Tolkiens-works-such-as-The-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 8 2024

When they have some kind of Marxist sensibility (like probably the case with GRRM), they are critical, because Tolkien was no Marxist.

I don’t keep up with modern fantasy writers sufficiently to know how many are non-Marxist or even Christian. Those guys would agree more with me.

Q VII

Can a constructed language (conlang) have no irregular grammatical rules?
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-constructed-language-conlang-have-no-irregular-grammatical-rules/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Sep 7 2024

That totally depends on the purpose.

Esperanto is a conlang for communication. It has no irregular grammatical rules.

Quenya is a conlang for art, by someone who knew languages very well, and it does have irregular items, like some preterites or past tenses are highly irregular.

Q VIII

Do you think the fact that J.R.R. Tolkien "translated" The Lord of the Rings into English adds an extra layer of depth to the story?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-the-fact-that-J-R-R-Tolkien-translated-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-into-English-adds-an-extra-layer-of-depth-to-the-story/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 5 2024

Finding an old manuscript, obviously, is always attractive.

Three Musketeers, Lord of the Rings, Name of the Rose.

Given that the events are supposed to be from times when the British Isles were not yet separated by the English channel, “translation” from some kind of pre-historic language (fictional or constructed) is inevitable, if one wants to do that route.

It’s attractive, it’s artsy, but as I know it is a pretense, it does not make the novel more meaningful, and neither does it make the novel less meaningful.

Q IX

Is it worth visiting Hobbiton if you are not a fan of The Lord of the Rings?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-worth-visiting-Hobbiton-if-you-are-not-a-fan-of-The-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Sep 2 2024

1. If you have a family member who is
2. and / or if you like quirky architecture.[1]
3. and if you like beer[2]

Footnotes

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwFWpvtzsxo
[2] Our Brews

Q X

How did Gandalf choose Pippin to be the new steward of Gondor?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Gandalf-choose-Pippin-to-be-the-new-steward-of-Gondor/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 26 2024

Not.

Q XI

What is the equivalent of a language in Tolkien's world?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-equivalent-of-a-language-in-Tolkiens-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 26 2024

Two examples:

• English is the equivalent of Westron
• Anglo-Saxon is the equivalent of Rohirric.

This makes Westron and Rohirric, at least in relation to the novel fictitious languages rather than constructed ones.

The point is, if the setting is NW Europe in the times when Doggerland was above water (before there was an English Channel), it is basically impossible anyone would have been speaking English for real. The English is the equivalent of the most used language in the narrative, and this because, as unlike Sindarin or Quenya, Westron was not exotic to main characters, it is represented with its “equivalent” English, as English is not exotic to us.

Rohirric as related to Westron is treated with Anglo-Saxon equivalent, because in each case there is a close relation, and even so no complete intercomprehension, if you have not learned the other language.

If you write a novel in English, you won’t make its main characters speak a very different language (apart from when it’s set in India or Africa within English colonies where some speak Hindi or Kwazulu or Igbo). You will usually reserve other languages (real-world or constructed ones for a fantasy setting) for other characters.

Q XII

Which was J.R.R. Tolkien's single best line of writing?
https://allthingslordoftheringsjrrtolkien.quora.com/Which-was-J-R-R-Tolkiens-single-best-line-of-writing-17

Submission accepted by

Jeffrey Claburn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 23 2024

I went over 151 or so answers to parent question.

Lots of lines I love there too. Here are three things not mentioned.

Poetry:

The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the road has gone
And I must follow if I can
Pursuing it with eager feet
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet
And whither then? I cannot say.

Prose in the Legendarium:

And great deeds were done, that were not wholly in vain.

Prose in the Letters:

Your wife is your soulmate.

And the rest of that wonderful letter to Michael.

Q XIII

In terms of realism, which world is more believable: Tolkien's or Rowling's? Why?
https://www.quora.com/In-terms-of-realism-which-world-is-more-believable-Tolkiens-or-Rowlings-Why/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 21 2024

Tolkien’s.

He doesn’t romanticise a boarding school!

Q XIV

How much did J.R.R. Tolkien love his wife Edith?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-did-J-R-R-Tolkien-love-his-wife-Edith/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 20 2024

He died the year after she did.

Q XV

How does J.R.R. Tolkien's background as a philologist influence his portrayal of Elves' immortality in "The Lord of the Rings" series?
https://www.quora.com/How-does-J-R-R-Tolkiens-background-as-a-philologist-influence-his-portrayal-of-Elves-immortality-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-series/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 19 2024

It would be good to define philologist first.

Often it’s assumed to mean “linguist” but linguistics is only part of it. The main thing is reading old texts.

The type of old texts that are very appropriate for Tolkien’s elves is, how St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, other Church Fathers, other Scholastics, perhaps mystics too, argue that life would have been for mankind if Adam hadn’t committed the Original Sin.

Q XVI

Were all the Elvish names in The Lord of the Rings invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, or were they already in existence before him?
https://www.quora.com/Were-all-the-Elvish-names-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-invented-by-J-R-R-Tolkien-or-were-they-already-in-existence-before-him/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

avid reader back when I had better sleep than now

Aug 17 2024

Any name in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion, that’s in either Quenya or Sindarin was, like these languages themselves, invented by Tolkien.

Some names were in existence before, but those are usually Norse names, sometimes Latinate ones, given as (equivalents of) the Westron of Men and Hobbits.

Elrond and Elros are Sindarin names, invented by Tolkien.

Sam Gamgee is a name in (the English equivalent of) Westron and not only was already in existence, but carried by a man who wrote Tolkien a worried letter. Lobelia Baggins is definitely a name that could exist in England, though I don’t think it did, and by now, any Baggins (if such) who named a daughter would probably want to avoid naming her Lobelia.

While The Shire is not on an island, it is meant as culturally equivalent to certain rural parts of England. Númenor, where Elros ruled some six thousand years before The Lord of the Rings, and Imladris / Rivendell where his brother Elrond still ruled when The Lord of the Rings started, well, they are meant to be mysterious, like Atlantis or like a Faerie, and Elfland. Therefore NOT to be culturally equivalent to rural England. Therefore in languages Tolkien invented, including names, which Tolkien also has to invent along with the languages.

Exception, Atalantë as a name of Númenor after it sank is obviously, if not identic to, at least clearly based on, Atlantis (which Númenor is supposed to represent).

Q XVII

To what extent were J.R.R. Tolkien's ideas in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" series realistic?
https://www.quora.com/To-what-extent-were-J-R-R-Tolkiens-ideas-in-The-Hobbit-and-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-series-realistic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 12 2024

In historical and naturalistic senses, they weren’t.

In morals, psychology, human interactions, and societal developments, they remain highly realistic.

Q XVIII

Is The Chronicles of Narnia as good as Lord of the Rings?
https://www.quora.com/Is-The-Chronicles-of-Narnia-as-good-as-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Dante Martínez

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 14 2024

They are good in different ways.

I used to reread both, regularly, before homelessness made me incapable of long reading.

Q XIX

which I posed (a little before my then account was banned) and Tiago Monteiro answered, as I just found out:
Was Tolkien forbidden in Franco's Spain or Salazar's Portugal, and if not were there translations to Spanish or Portuguese?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Tolkien-forbidden-in-Francos-Spain-or-Salazars-Portugal-and-if-not-were-there-translations-to-Spanish-or-Portuguese/answer/Tiago-Monteiro-11

Tiago Monteiro

Lived in Portugal

6 years ago

I don’t know about Spain, but Tolkien was not forbidden in Salazar’s Portugal.

The portuguese regime banned about 900 books from 1926 to 1974. Most of them feel into two categories: politics and erotic.

There wasn’t a big market for english literature. French was still seen as the model culture during the dictatorship and the big foreign authors were the likes of Jules Vernes and Dumas. Tolkien’s works were not forbidden, but were also not sought after. The first Portuguese editions were only released in the 80’s, when english started to become more mainstream.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

21.IX.2024

St. Matthew

Moito obrigado!

Q XX

What were the major achievements of J.R.R. Tolkien as a linguist and was he interested at all in non-European languages?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-major-achievements-of-J-R-R-Tolkien-as-a-linguist-and-was-he-interested-at-all-in-non-European-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fan of Tolkien as well as of his novels.

6 years ago

“What were the major achievements of J.R.R. Tolkein as a linguist”

Technically, a philologist.

Linguistic side, contributing to some Oxford English wordlist.

Old text side, editing Ancrene Riule, translating four poems, I think, from Middle English West Midland’s dialect, all probably from same poet, starting with “Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight”.

Criticism of Beowulf as a poem.

Mixed side, essays like Translating Beowulf and English and Welsh.

Both sides and the inbetween, lecturing.

“and was he interested at all in non-European languages?”

He was certainly intensely interested precisely in European languages.

It is however fairly probable or to my mind certain he had heard two languages as a child, which he then forgot, in which he seems to have taken no major interest, but which may have influenced his “language aesthetics”.

Afrikaans and Sesotho (Bloemfontein is nearly next door to Lesotho, as well as Karoo).

[One other answer reminds of his known knowledge in Hebrew and presumable one in Sanskrit.]

I Think the God's Not Dead Movies Have a Point

New blog on the kid: In Sweden, a Christian True Believer is "Luna Lovegood" · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: I Think the God's Not Dead Movies Have a Point · Creation vs. Evolution: Have You Ever Heard of Jan Lööf?

Nathaniel Jeanson Is Lying About College
Creation Myths | 25.IX.2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2wMPX0kJA8

7:14 When exactly is God's not Dead movies supposed to strawman teachers of evolutionary biology?

God's not dead movies, list of adversaries or adversarial situations

1) a philosophy teacher
2) a school board
3) law suit about a Church on campus ground
4) law suit about homeschooling
5) politician who wants secularism

So far, none involve any kind of natural science teacher in class.

8:00 Sorry, but can you seriously pretend to speak for history, social sciences, psychology from your stance as a natural science teacher?

8:17 You know what?

Given your shown real or feigned ignorance of what Nathaniel Jeanson was talking of, I think your analyses of his motives:

a) is not very relevant to understanding them
b) might be calculated on your part to keep your flock in an echo chamber.

Right or Wrong, My Countryman Miss Thunberg is Not an Idiot

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Right or Wrong, My Countryman Miss Thunberg is Not an Idiot · New blog on the kid: Speaking of Sweden, Thunberg ...

If anyone thinks I should have considered her my "countrywoman" she's a girl, not yet married and "countryman" uses the older sense of "man" as synonym not of Swedish "man" but of Swedish "menniska" ... even happens in Swedish, as with "ombudsman"

Annoying bucket of ego!’ Jeremy Clarkson blasts BBC for ‘fawning’ over Greta Thunberg
Celebrity Mark | 25 sept. 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL_KkZQVrdw

In 2023, China produced 35% of global CO 2 emissions, according to the International Energy Agency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_China

2023, populations,
China:
1,422,584,933
World:
8,091,734,930

1,422,584,933 / 8,091,734,930 = 17.58 %

US:
343,477,335
World:
8,091,734,930

343,477,335 / 8,091,734,930 = 4.24 %

Emissions, biggest 3, in percent of world* emissions:

1 China 32.88%
2 United States 12.60%
3 India 6.99%

That was one year earlier, 2022.

35 / 17.58 = 1.99 times "fair share"
12.6 / 4.24 = 2.97 times "fair share"

India:
1,438,069,596
World:
8,091,734,930

1,438,069,596 / 8,091,734,930 = 17.77

6.99 / 17.77 = 0.39 times "fair share"

Let's compare a list of four big emitters with a list of many emitters where Thunberg might be heard, US being on both lists.

China, US, India, Russia = 57.43 % of emissions

Australia 1.02%** Canada 1.51% United States 12.60% South Korea 1.65% Taiwan 0.72% Czech Republic (Czechia) 0.26% Singapore 0.14% Japan 2.81% Poland 0.84% Germany 1.75% Malaysia 0.72% Belgium 0.23% Norway 0.11% Netherlands 0.35% Ireland 0.10% Israel 0.16%

Austria 0.16% Finland 0.10% South Africa 1.05% Greece 0.15% Italy 0.84% Spain 0.66% United Kingdom 0.88% Hungary 0.12% France 0.82% Chile 0.24% Argentina 0.48% Romania 0.20% Portugal 0.11% Mexico 1.27% Sweden 0.10%

32.15 % of emissions

The Thunberg friendly list stands for less emissions than the big four list, but not all that much less, it's more than half.

* CO2 Emissions by Country (2022)
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/

** The list is in descending order of per capita emissions, and leaving out any country having less than 0.1 % of the world's emissions, as well as such former East Block countries (or for China and Vietnam present Communist ones) and Muslim countries that would be unlikely to heed Miss Thunberg.