Thursday, March 29, 2018

On Patrick Coffin's Interview with Lizzie Reezay (first half) - Since it brings back memories of my own conversion (Bonus : Jesus Healed by Whose Authority?)

Video commented on
68: Protestant YouTube Star Becomes Catholic—Lizzie Estella Reezay | 27.III.2018

(After watching first half).

"well, I actually kind of respect that point of view, yeah, in light of the claims of the Church, the Church isn't just a little bit wrong, if she's wrong we are in serious trouble"

Well, one reason to check out who between Bergoglio and David Bawden was licitly elected Pope as in was even eligible ...

Or, whether, when David Bawden held the emergency conclave, one could reasonably say that the perpetrator of 1986 (twice, visiting a synagogue and the prayer meeting) could possibly be a real holder of the Holy See, the seat of St Peter ...

Defender of The Catholic Faith Peter Augustine
Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I don't know what that has to do with any of what I said, since the emergency conclave was held by a Catholic up to then lay theologian.

You cannot classify David Bawden as Protestant by any stretch, whether you do or do not consider him as Pope Michael.

The Assisi Prayer Meeting of 1986 (and subsequent ones after the emergency conclave) clearly show that Wojtyla, known to some as Pope John Paul II, and even as saint or as the great, was not completing a Catholic work.

Defender of The Catholic Faith Peter Augustine
Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You really do take me for a Protestant?

If you were a Catholic, why are you a liar?

If you are NOT a liar, why do you repeat a misudnerstanding after I corrected it?

If you have a bishop, why is he not shutting up your mouth of lies, imposing silence until you have learned some honesty?

Defender of The Catholic Faith Peter Augustine
Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You have lied by calling me and Pope Michael protestants after I already explained we were not.

KA Fleury
Hans-Georg Lundahl ... if you do not believe and accept EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches, then you're protesting the Church that Christ established; the Church that He promised He would not leave orphaned; the Church He promised would be safe from the gates of Hell. All the breakaways said they were taking their marbles, which they claimed were the real marbles. All the breakaways said that the bishop seated on the Chair of Peter didn't have any authority over them. That's what you're saying. Ergo, you are schismatic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"All the breakaways said that the bishop seated on the Chair of Peter didn't have any authority over them."

Actually, SSPX is saying "yes, he has authority, but no, we still don't owe him obedience".

You have a problem with the following one:

"That's what you're saying."

No, I am saying that heresy makes a man ineligible for papacy, which means that if an apparent Pope was heretic in public prior to supposed election, that election can be known to be invalid.

New blog on the kid : Bergoglio and Quarracino Neognostics?

7:20 "before the Gospels began to be formed"

Look here, in the Catholic Church we believe in Tradition.

It may be divided on whether IV Gospel was written by the son of Zebedee or by John the Presbyter, also known to Papias, but it is not divided on date of composition being earlier than even Apostolic Fathers, except perhaps St Polycarp.

Nope, St Polycarp too was independently active mostly after it was written.

It is also not divided on I Gospel being written by St Matthew. Very early after the events.

It is also not divided on II and III Gospels being written while Saints Peter and Paul were still alive.

10:52 As convert from Protestantism and revert from Orthodoxy, I don't think Stephen K. Ray's book would have helped me as much as experience of Orthodox.

I could kind of make a case for every local ordinary being a successor of St Peter and papacy only a coordinator iure eccelsiastico, replaceable by Ecumenic Patriarch.

I could not make a case for the Modernism of Neohimerite Orthodox or for the Anticatholicism of Palaeohimerite Orthodox (in Russian Church that would have been Patriarchate of Moscow vs ROCOR - I was myself a Romanian Neohimerite).

And if those were the Orthodox there were?

And if on top of that, some who were respected in both camps, Paul Balaster-Convalier, a Greek bishop in Mexico, were actually lying about St Robert Bellarmine, who still was a very favourite Saint of mine, not least because he was defending Geocentrism ... I came to the conclusion, I had courted trouble.

So, I came back. Then to FSSPX (which would work a bit better with every local bishop as successor of St Peter than with purporting to be Papalist, faithful to Vatican I), now to Pope Michael.

Those today most faithful to Palamas, on either the Blessed Virgin or St Peter, would seem to be Catholics, including Uniates of Byzantine rite (who explicitly refer to him in justifying the Unija).

12:48 Conferring notes.

Back when I was Protestant, I thought the Bible self explanatory.

It is in great deal, and I only came to see the Catholic explanation in the verses, but, I had not seen interpretation as an intellectual game.

I do so more now, but of course, deferring as I do to Trent, I check I am not contradicting all of the Church Fathers in any one.

For instance, could Tower of Babel have been a rocket (not saying Nimrod could have made it work, only that could have been his project)? Well, "the top of which reaches into heaven" and absence of "so tall that" seems to argue it, but, I do care to not contradict all Church Fathers, like if everyone of them had been into the skyscraper interpretation, which seems fairly classic, I would have had to be wrong. You can check Postilla in Genesim by St Thomas Aquinas, that was not the only interpretation around, and so there is no patristic unanimity I am opposed to on this one.

13:44 "Like historicity of Jonah"

No, I think that would be braving all of the Church's tradition.

The idea Jonah could be a religious novel is imported from Rabbinic Judaism (and I am certain it is post-Christian rabbis, not Gamaliel or Shammai or Hillel), via Calvin.

It would be braving the tradition about his grave in Nineve, which was recently vandalised by Daesh. It would be braving the tradition of how Assyrians - uniates as well as Nestorians - think of how their Church was prepared already in OT times.

16:17 Fulton Sheen is no favourite of mine.

Freedom is freedom to do what I ought?

At its basic foundation, yes.

But at its social realisation, no.

If freedom is in its social realisation freedom to do what I ought, someone can imagine what I personally ought to do and say it is better for me than what I want to do (we are speaking within the limits of licit choices).

Chesterton, please!

And yes, physical freedom, the gift God created us with, is of course freedom to do what we want, even go to Hell, as Chesterton mentioned.

Patrick Coffin, did you say Heaven is no destination?

Dimond Brothers said this was also sth which Wojtyla held:

"John Paul II also taught universal salvation, denied that heaven, hell and purgatory are places, agreed ..."

The Antichrist and The False Prophet, at 3:53 | 11.III.2013

Well, while there is a continuity between the state of grace and Heaven, between mortal sin and Hell, they are not the same and Heaven and Hell must be, beyond states (but unlike those on earth with eternal fixation and no sensory distraction from what one's state is, no corporeal bliss in Hell, no corporeal suffering in Heaven), also, since we will rise in our bodies, actual places.

time for some dialogue, so here I note my name when it's me:

Will she discuss the torture tools used on Bible believing Christians by the Vatican during the Inquisition in which 50 million Christians were first tortured in the most horrific ways and ultimately massacred...

Corolla 97
50 million? - more like 3,000 over the 400 years of the Spanish Inquisition

john b
tiarnan; Exaggerated numbers.Maybe you should ask your protestant friends how anti catholic they were in England and Ireland. They stole catholic church property killed nuns and priests; so don't give us the I am innocent and the church is guilty.

Matter of fact it was only recently that a catholic could even become prime minister of England.

Arnold Conrad
50,000,000?! There weren't that many in all of Europe in those times. That is a propaganda number invented by anti-Catholic polemicists.

Pat B
50 million? Do you even think there were 50 million people living in Europe? Seriously, European population was lower than that even at it's high levels before the Black Death and the Great Famine of the 14th century. Also, you are aware that the Church never tortured anyone, that it was the civil authorities. The worst, most abusive episode--the Spanish Inquisition--was conducted by the King and Queen of Spain. Did you know that oftentimes criminals would commit some blasphemous act so that they might have their cases adjudicated by the Church rather than by civil authorities because the Church was more just?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@tiarnan - I don't think many people having academic levels of history knowledge about the past 2000 years would subscribe to either Trail of Blood or Foxe' Book of Martyrs.

Just as they hardly would agree that VICARIVS FILII DEI was a current papal title.

There is a difference between historic recriminations for undisputed events, like Huguenots killed in St Bartholomew's massacre and Pope saying a Te Deum because he considered the French king had been saved from Protestant terrorists and recriminations for undocumented events claimed only by very biassed accusers.

I'd challenge you to one thing a bit outside this dispute. You would presumably agree that when St Jerome translated the Vulgate, he did so in a Roman Empire where Latin was a spoken language, his Latin in Vulgate was at least as close if not closer than King James' to your own English.

You would probably also claim, and here disagree with me, that after this, there was a time when the Church decided to keep it all in Latin to keep the Bible from the faithful who didn't know that language.

Now, my challenge : when exactly do you think this occurred? And how exactly do you think this happened?

I'll give you one clue in advance, your guess will be wrong.

Hans-Georg Lundahl -

Let me ask you a quick question first - seeing as though you want to change the topic.

Do you believe in Evolution and the Universe being 13-15 billions of years old?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
If you had checked my other comments, no.

I also don't believe Wojtyla, Ratzinger, Bergoglio (anti-Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis) are or were Catholics or Popes of the Catholic Church.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What other comments?

Anyway my question was -

Do you believe in Evolution and the Universe being 13-15 billions of years old?

They're just two simple 'yes' or 'no' question/answers....

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I made comments to Patrick Coffin about "yes, Heaven is a place" and "yes, Jonah most definitely is historical". Not under your comment, but elsewhere.

The simple answers:

  • 1) Evolution as in common descent (a wolf and a sheep, not a wolf and a dog having common ancestor) - no.
  • 2) Universe being 13 billion years old - no.

I believe, as the Roman Martyrology said up to the time of Antipope Wojtyla, God created Heaven (all Universe!) and Earth 5199 years before Christ was born.

Or possibly 5500 years before, as the Byzantine's count the LXX chronology.

Defender of The Catholic Faith Peter Augustine
Will you show us the concrete historical facts to verify your accusations?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
And while you are at it, for the century 1200 to 1300, for the groups Albigensians, Waldensians and Catholics, show which one is documented as being Young Earth Creationist?

Defender of The Catholic Faith Peter Augustine
Highlighted reply
Hans-Georg Lundahl


Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am sorry, I think you are really dreadfully wrong on how to deal with tiarnan.

He is not from a Catholic culture. He can have excuses in ignorance, and it is the job of a Catholic Apologist to actually correct him, not to ask him to shut up, nor to be rude.

I don't know what YOU consider an exercise in folly, but being a Young Earth Creationist was interesting enough for St Thomas Aquinas, whom I suppose you still honour as a Saint, even though you are Novus Ordo or sth like it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl -

Just as Muslims are blinded by the crimes of Islam and its priests Catholics too are blinded by the crimes of their Church and its hierarchy - the only difference being, Islam has only carried out a fraction of the atrocities carried out by the Catholic Church...

I'm sure you think all of the Popes from the Papal families: Borgias, Farnese, Orsini, Medici etc were infallible men of God (even though the average lay person is well aware of their most obvious crimes, if you did some basic research however you'd begin to uncover their untold crimes against Christians)....just as Muslims think all the Imams who call for terrorism to be unleashed across the West and for Western women to raped unmercilessly also think their Imams and Mohammed are also infallible men of God...

One day, hopefully you'll listen to the Words of Jesus Christ in Revelation:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4

I'll leave it there as unfortunately I have to work a lot and don't have time to spoon feed evidence you can easily get for yourself.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Islam has only carried out a fraction of the atrocities carried out by the Catholic Church..."

Sayz who ... a Muslim?

"I'm sure you think all of the Popes from the Papal families: Borgias, Farnese, Orsini, Medici etc were infallible men of God"

I think of the Popes as infallible in office as to certain types of official statements.

I do not think of them as impeccable.

"even though the average lay person is well aware of their most obvious crimes, if you did some basic research however you'd begin to uncover their untold crimes against Christians"

Keyword : untold. When you speak of 50 millions of Christians murdered by the Catholic Church, this seems to have remained untold back then and is only being told now by James Milton Carroll, a Baptist Minister.

You took Young Earth Creationism as one criterium of a Bible believing Christian. I fully accept that - or at least, if you can be a Christian without it, it is because God has some patience with your ignorance and circumstances.

I asked you, between Catholics, Albigensians and Waldensians, which group can be DOCUMENTED as being back in 1200-1300 Young Earth Creationist, the answer is Catholics.

The Albigensians, while remaining so, were not even past Genesis 1:1. Suppose an Albigensian had appeared in the times of King David saying "in the beginning God created heaven, then an angel betrayed him and created earth, our souls come from heaven and our bodies from that fallen angel".

Well, I think some of the Hebrews back then would have began to murmur the CORRECT text of Genesis 1:1 and started picking up some stones, just to be prepared after King David pronounced sentence, and I am sure if the guy didn't repent, King David would have told the stoners "go ahead".

Waldensians seem a bit closer to Christian. Now, a point is, once Albigensians were out of the way, Waldensians were a lot less persecuted.

One more detail. Numbers. Bernard Gui had a reputation of severity. His list of sentences as Inquisitor in Toulouse is preserved. 930 cases overall, of which above 300 to prison so as to correct heretics about in ways similar to some of the gentler modern kinds of Mental Institution, even if locked in. More like they would handle someone "suicidal" than someone "schizophrenic". Note, this was not torture, these were cases where guilt of at least material heresy, at least saying a thing that was wrong, had already been established, sometimes by torture, often not.

The other cases involved 45 whose dolls were burned and 42 who were burned in person.

OK, over half escape the awaiting death sentence? Look, that is NOT really how you conduct a killing business. More than those together were the ones who were freed from prison.

The rest involve some cases of carrying the cross, some cases of pilgrimages, some cases of other penances.

This was a preserved list of sentences - so, Inquisition is certainly off the hook when it comes to mass murder; whether you count Albigensians as Christians or not (I don't), whether you count Waldensians as Christians or not (I feel iffy, about as with some Pentecostals or Baptists).

So, were the Crusades against Heretics then mass murders?

No. Even the Crusades against Islam were fairly gentle as war goes, with some atrocities, not a long ongoing atrocity. The Crusade against Albigensians was more brutal, but also more marginal in terms of war effort.

It is impossible that more Albigensians were killed than there were victims (especially Christian but also Jewish ones) under many centuries more of much wider application geographically of Islam.

"just as Muslims think all the Imams who call for terrorism to be unleashed across the West and for Western women to raped unmercilessly also think their Imams and Mohammed are also infallible men of God..."

No Catholic clergyman is calling for brutal terrorism, and the call for crusades was not similar to such calls.

Clergy didn't go into details about how gory things were to be done, and when laymen filled out the blanks on the gory side, they sometimes were corrected by their clergy.

//One day, hopefully you'll listen to the Words of Jesus Christ in Revelation: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4 //

I did get out of communion with Bergoglio and Wojtyla already. As to the Catholic Church historically, well, I have never seen ANY cogent argument it should be equated with the harlot in scarlet.

"I'll leave it there as unfortunately I have to work a lot and don't have time to spoon feed evidence you can easily get for yourself."

Nice try to play the wiser guy ... come back when you have time, I do my work arguing, sometimes in essays, sometimes in debates wth people like you.

Two clarifications, "Albigensians, while such" = until they repented and reverted to Catholicism.

Bernard Gui's other sentences = forgot some confiscations and pecuniary punishments, fines.

Great Bishop of Geneva! : Dealing with "Trail of Blood" Claims

Bonus video
Did Jesus receive His power from Satan?
ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry | 5.IV.2015

With my comments:

2:11 What if there was a man who did learn magic arts in Egypt, and then, going to Sweden, raised no dead to new corporeal life (but like the witch in Endor raised ghosts to momentary appearances, not saying Samuel's spirit was her usual fare), cured no lepers, gave sight to no blind and so on, but did things like what even hypnotism can achieve?

I think Swedish and Norwegian history calls that man Odin.

I also think, his grandsons or greatgrandsons were contemporary to Our Lord's birth, so he could have been in Holy Land in the days of Mariamne.

Jesus obviously did no necromancy, but one man accepted by the Jews did, if you have heard of Onkelos.

5:50 "to leave their idols and to believe in the God of Israel"

Strictly true on one condition : that Catholicism is not "thinly veiled paganism" as some claim.

Think about that one!

Bonus video II
Vladimir Putin Is In The 33 Boys Club
Shaking My Head Productions | 21.III.2018

First, the video goes into details, more or less plausible, about Putin.

One good thing, he was born on October 7, the old day of St Bridget and the day of Our Lady of the Rosary.

This is less interesting than how whoever made it tries to pass of Catholicism as evil. Here are my comments on that part:

15:36 Rome became the Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor became the Pope.

YOU claim.

Roman Emperors after Constantine:

Constantine II with Constantius II and Constans; Julian the Apostate, Jovian; Valentinian I and Valens; same Valens also with Gratian and Valentinian II; Theodosius I (who made Catholicism the state religion several decades after Constantine, died 395), then split.

West : Valentinian III, Petronius Maximus, Avitus, Majorian, Libius Severus, Anthemius, Olybrius, Glycerius, Julius Nepos, Romulus Augustulus (some consider Julius Nepos to have been the last, since he survived the deposition of Romulus Augustulus).
East : Arcadius (died 408), Theodosius II, Marcian, Leo I the Thracian, Leo II, Zeno, Basiliscus, Zeno again, Anastasius I Dicorus (died 518), Justin I, Justinian I, Justin II, Tiberius II Constantine, Maurice (with his son Theodosius, died 602), Phocas, Heraclius (reconquered Jerusalem from Chosroes), Constantine III, Heraklonas, Constans II, Constantine IV, Justinian II - first reign, Leontios, Tiberios III (died 703), Justinian II - second reign (died 711), Philippikos Bardanes, Anastasios II, Theodosius III, let's take a break, I don't like the Iconoclast successor ...

Now, in the time of Constantine, there was a Pope, Sylvester, here are a few Popes before Sylvester:

he came after Miltiades, who came after Eusebius, who came after Marcellus I, who came after Marcellinus (who began his reign in 296), who came after Caius, who came after Eutychian, after Felix I, after Dionysius, after Sixtus II, after Stephen I, after Lucius I, after Cornelius, after Fabian, after Anterus, after Pontian, after Urban I, after Callixtus I, after Zephyrinus (who accessed in 199), after Victor I, after Eleutherius, after Soter, after Anicetus, after Pius I, after Hyginus, after Telesphorus, after Sixtus I, after Alexander I, after Evaristus (who accessed in 99), after Clement I, after Anacletus, after Linus, after Peter who became Pope in Jerusalem in AD 33 from where he had gone first to Antioch and then to Rome.

So, if Popes existed before Constantine and if Roman Emperors existed well after Gregory the Great whom I think you too would count as Pope, how do you reckon Emperors became Popes?

It doesn't add up.

Now, Popes stepping into some of the Emperor's shoes, as secular lord of Rome and middle Italy, that does, once Romulus Augustulus is deposed and Barbarians have ceased too, but you are trying to pretend papacy is an offshot of Roman Empire.

It does so NOT add up.

16:11 Double Headed Eagle being a symbol of 33:rd degree masonry ... well, I think quite a few in Russia, Germany, Austria and Albania do not quite appreciate this, as with Serbia as well.

Guess what? Freemasonry was founded in 1717, well after the Double Headed Eagle was a well established symbol of the Roman Empire.

This means, its older uses cannot be sullied by Freemasonry.

around 16:47 "many compromises were made with paganism, instead of the Church being separate from the world, it became a part of this world system"

As it should - as long as there were no real and serious compromises with paganism.

Christ had told the Apostles to make all nations into His disciples. That begins with the ones in Roman Empire, as well as with even before, Armenia.

17:07 "wholesale mixtures of paganism and Christianity"

You might want to document that one.

Of course, Jews will say Catholicism is Pagan, insofar as they deny that Christ ended Paganism. [Over many, so far not all, nations.]

17:54 "neither did he build great shining cathedrals"

No, but He had ordered the building of a Temple which prefigured His Body.

"with great pageants on the holidays"

You would like to check that up with how the Old Testament cult was organised. Judaism now has not such great pageants since the Temple was destroyed, but great pageants are NOT a sign of paganism. Nor are holidays.

18:12 "where a poor [etc] would be turned away at the door"

In Holy Mass you are not turned away at the door because you are homeless in the Catholic Church.

If you think of some special concert, that is another question, but normally being homeless per se is not an exclusion, since a concert in Church is normally for free. Or for voluntary contributions.

I can say that with good conscience, since, from 2009 to 2010 (or even 2011) I though accepting "Benedict XVI" was OK, and resisting his modernism was OK, and so going to SSPX was OK, and I was homeless and practised in the SSPX parish of St Nicolas du Chardonnet, going to Church every Sunday. I was not turned away because I was homeless.

The idea of a Catholic Church which does not welcome the homeless doesn't exist.

I have been ill received as a writer, since some have accepted the Protestant idea that a writer needs to be an Academic with a well ordered life, but I was always very well received insofar as I was coming primarily as a homeless. As to my being a writer, I have not been better received by Protestants, including your own version of that.

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